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Post by dem bones on May 6, 2008 8:27:48 GMT
"Inspired" by comments on the Pan Horror 21, Pan Horror 23 and Shafts Of Fear threads relating to George Fielding Eliot's The Copper Bowl, Fay Woolf's Slowly, Charles Birkin's A Lovely Bunch Of Coconuts and Alan Temperley's Kowlongo Plaything. A two parter. Can a horror story go too far? If so, which story or stories nearly made you give up on the genre altogether?
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Post by carolinec on May 6, 2008 8:48:51 GMT
Oh dear, I think I might upset a few fellow Vaulters with my answer to this one. Bear in mind when you read this that I prefer what Dem refers to as "brainy horror" to the pulpy stuff (sorry - but it's a free country!). A few years ago, the BBC ran a competition called "End of Story" where a number of famous authors in different genres started a story, and the general public were invited to pick one and finish it. The person they had representing the horror genre was Shaun Hutson. I'd never read any Hutson, and I was horrified (in the worst possible sense of the word) when they read his start to a story. It was just a totally OTT description of graphic violence. My reaction was "If this crap is what mainstream publishers are publishing as horror nowadays, no wonder so many people dislike the genre". Sorry, I knew you wouldn't like it, but that was the way I felt about it. It didn't put me off exactly - after all, I realised there were still great horror writers around, even if they weren't in the mainstream. It did annoy me somewhat that a writer like Hutson should be on all the shelves in Waterstones when brilliant writers (like Ramsey Cambell, for example) were relegated to the small presses. BTW, needless to say the Hutson story didn't inspire me to complete his story - I couldn't be inspired to write that kind of stuff. The one which did inspire me was Sue Townend (or is it Towsend? - the Adrian Mole writer). Her story inspired me to write a Twilight Zone-style piece about a shoe shop assistant's guardian angel. I didn't get anywhere with my competition entry though. Right, I hope you don't decide to ban me from the Vault after those comments about Hutson. I eagerly (and somewhat nervously) await the response ...
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Post by franklinmarsh on May 6, 2008 9:37:05 GMT
Nice one, Caroline! And there was me about to review Shaun's Wild-Bunch-As-Cockernee-Crim-Fraternity shoot 'em up Exit Wounds as the start of a this-place-is-becoming-too-high-falutin' crusade! I love Hutson's work as simple, easy to read, gore soaked drivel but I would have to admit that Spawn pushed the envelope a bit too far and is one of his novels that I would hesitate to return to. (Incidentally the End Of Story horror comp was won by none other than Chris Wood, creator of The British Horror Films.Co.UK website - but it didn't set him on the road to fame and fortune. Horror (Gawd bless it) is such a wide ranging genre than I don't think I've ever read anything that would make me give up on the subject as a whole. Reading The Exorcist at a tender age and having the s*** scared out of me made me think twice about reading it again, but I'd just reach for a different author. As a result of this site, I began read Richard Laymon. The first books of his I read I enjoyed immensely. However, after a while, I began to get a little tired and depressed at some of his stylistic flourishes. But, not to worry, after The Hut, I've turned back to...erm...The Lay... and am reading Amara, his take on The Mummy (well, it's got to be better than Anne Rice?) Incidently, Dem, the werewolf antho is called The Ultimate Werewolf - I'll try and put up details later.
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Post by dem bones on May 6, 2008 9:37:44 GMT
Right, I hope you don't decide to ban me from the Vault after those comments about Hutson. You'll have to try a lot harder than that to get banned from here! Shaun Hutson certainly divides opinion and is a very good example to get us started. The earlier titles make no pretence to be anything other than sex, violence and gore pretty much for their own sakes, so is that going too far? Me, I'll always love him for Slugs and Breeding Ground, maybe even the incredibly depressing Erebus (don't even attempt to read that one, Caroline: you seriously won't like it), although I think he'd prefer I gave his later, by all accounts more accomplished work a go, something I've not yet worked up any enthusiasm to do. I'd argue that Shaun Hutson couldn't put anyone off horror. He could certainly put you off Shaun Hutson books and the 'Nasty' genre as a whole, but these are easily distinguishable from the mainstream stuff and easily avoided. I doubt you'd pick up, say, Edward Jervis's The Pestilence expecting it to be similar to Ancient Images or The Influence. Personally, I can't think of any 'nasty' or splatterpunk story I've read that depressed me anything like 'Kowlongo Plaything' did. But does Temperley go too far? this-place-is-becoming-too-high-falutin' Yeah, I've got a terrible feeling you're right. Now that really is depressing. Incidently, Dem, the werewolf antho is called The Ultimate Werewolf - I'll try and put up details later. Oh, that Byron Preiss collection with the Robert Weinberg story? I can save you the trouble if it's that one!
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Post by David A. Riley on May 6, 2008 9:43:27 GMT
"Oh dear, I think I might upset a few fellow Vaulters with my answer to this one."
I'm more upset that the BBC thought Shaun Hutson was a good representative of the horror genre. I suppose the only thing in their favour would be that, as a much bigger selling author than Ramsey Campbell, he could be argued to be a truer representative of the genre as regards the book-buying public - which is a horrifying thought!
Worse still is the image of the genre generated by most popular movies, like Halloween or Hostel or the utter drech that gets churned out on TV on such as the Horror Channel.
Must stop now or I'll sidetrack this thread!
David
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Post by David A. Riley on May 6, 2008 10:12:18 GMT
I wonder if what may almost put you off horror is coming across a story early on which just happens to be a specific type to which you have an aversion.
In my case it's torture. I didn't realise this fully till fairly recently, perhaps not till I watched Hostel and tried to watch Hostel 2, which I gave up on. And also when I had to include a couple of scenes of torture in a novel I'm working on at the moment. I did not at all enjoy writing these scenes and which are probably quite tame by comparison to scenes of that nature elsewhere as a consequence.
This may explain why I have never liked Sir Charles Birkin's stories. His stories, brought out by Tandem years ago, I think pushed me back towards reading SF more at the time. It's also why I lost interest in the later Pan series - probably at the cost of coming across some good stories too as a consequence.
David
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Post by allthingshorror on May 6, 2008 10:12:26 GMT
Shaun Hutson? Author of the 'Urban Thriller'? My God, there's never been a bigger sell out than that Liverpool supporting thingy. Not that there's anything wrong with supporting Liverpool - he just loves to cram it down your throat at every oppurtunity.
I gave up on Hutson when DEADHEAD came out. I despaired after reading that book, I really did.
But fair play to the man I'll always thank him for DEATHDAY (first one I ever read of his) VICTIMS, ASSASSINS and last but not least RENEGADES. For one, I always thought the cover to that book was always pretty fecking cool.
The only Hutson book I have now is his film tie-in of The Terminator which surprisingly is a pretty good read. Scan avilable if required.
sorry - but why is it when I went to write t w a t - it coms out as thingy?
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Post by carolinec on May 6, 2008 10:21:26 GMT
I'm more upset that the BBC thought Shaun Hutson was a good representative of the horror genre. Yes, that's just what I was trying to say, David! It wasn't so much the writing (Hutson probably is a good writer in his own way) as the fact that this was supposed to represent the genre. It didn't put me off horror - just put me off mainstream publishers! But, yes, for me, too much gore, violence and sex for it's own sake IS going too far - I simply don't get anything out of that kind of writing. For me, it has to be something which enables me to use my imagination (that's what I mean by "brainy horror" - something which gets the brain cells working!). Interesting discussion - glad you're not going to ban me, Dem! sorry - but why is it when I went to write t w a t - it coms out as thingy? It's the built-in auto-censor, Johnny (quite appropriate to this discussion really!). I've come across another board which doesn't like c-o-c-k. For example, p e a c o c k comes out as peathingy!
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Post by weirdmonger on May 6, 2008 10:55:14 GMT
sorry - but why is it when I went to write t w a t - it coms out as thingy? I don't know.
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Post by Calenture on May 6, 2008 11:34:53 GMT
What really put me off any writing is when I figure an author's got his head stuck so far up his arse that he's lost his sense of humour. Fortunately, as long as Des is making links like this one: The Thingie...we know there's not much danger of that happening here!
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Post by Johnlprobert on May 6, 2008 11:54:54 GMT
I don't think I'd ever give up on the genre 'altogether' but here are a few examples of instances where I've thought I'd have a rest for a bit:
Pan 19-23: All getting a bit repetitive and unpleasant. I decided to give the series a rest but kept buying the volumes for 'old times' sake'. Seeing the prices of Numbers 28- 30 I'm glad I did.
Best New Horror: Loved this series when it started, then it all got too arty and I got tired of it. Although for better or worse it was one of the reasons I started writing - because I believed no-one was writing the kind of stuff I liked. Little did I know that marvellous authors like Paul Finch were out there but just not being included.
Never read Hutson & not sure if I ever will. Guy N Smith's 'The Island' - which I read in one go on a train ride down to Cornwall was probably the last of this kind of pulp horror that I read.
Oddly enough I've never had this problem with films as the genre always seems to save itself just as I'm getting fed up. Most modern movies are rubbish but then along comes THE ORPHANAGE and [REC] and THE MIST to make me love it all over again. I loved HOSTEL too.
Authors that have reignited my love for the genre when I've been seriously fed up with it would include:
Jonathan Carroll Fritz Leiber Clark Ashton Smith Ambrose Bierce Christopher Fowler
and many others I'm sure
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Post by carolinec on May 6, 2008 12:40:45 GMT
Fortunately, as long as Des is making links like this one: The Thingie...we know there's not much danger of that happening here! I know - I just loved this bit: "I looked up with the growing realisation that I was suffering from the worst case of not-being-able-to-end-something that it was possible for any writer to suffer from. A metafiction with no possible meaningful clincher to put it to bed." Thanks for making me grin, Des! Back to the discussion ... Two things I have trouble with reading about are child abuse and animal cruelty. Re child abuse, two spring to mind which I find particularly difficult to read - Mark Morris' "Progeny" and - talking of Des - his "Always in Dim Shadow". Both are all the more powerful for NOT going into any graphic detail but simply leaving it to the imagination. These definitely don't put me off horror, but I think if I came across a story which DID go into graphic detail about child abuse, then I just wouldn't be able to read it. I think "Progeny" is most disturbing because it takes the point of view of the perpetrator of the crime, making you - in a way - feel sympathy for him. Horrible! Similarly, regarding animal cruelty, I tried reading Iain Banks' "The Wasp Factory" - I gave up as I just couldn't read it. This book, in case you don't know, is about a particularly disturbed boy who enjoys torturing and killing animals - ranging from pinning a bee to the striker on his alarm clock to setting fire to live dogs. The only redeeming feature is that Banks, by his own admission, never does any research for his novels, so at least I know he's never tried setting fire to a dog to watch it go off woooooooooooooooof!
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Post by David A. Riley on May 6, 2008 12:53:37 GMT
Two things I have trouble with reading about are child abuse and animal cruelty.
Two very difficult subjects to cover and far from easy to read for anyone, I would have thought.
At the risk of looking far too squeamish after my previous admissions, I have to admit that Arthur Machen's Hill of Dreams proved impossible for me to finish the first time I tried when I came to an incident in it where a group of schoolboys hang a puppy. That shocked and horrified me at the time and created an image I could not very easiy forget, much though I wanted to. Perhaps it was as much because I wanted the protagonist to do something about it - and doesn't.
I can't offhand think of any horror stories involving overly descriptive child abuse. Strangely enough, the crime novels of Martina Cole very often seem to cover this subject - and quite graphically. There is a moral undertone to her stories, though, that saves them, in my opinion anyway, from being in any way gratuitous.
David
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Post by Calenture on May 6, 2008 13:02:20 GMT
Two things I have trouble with reading about are child abuse and animal cruelty... For myself, I'd say it depends who's writing and how. Melanie Tem often uses a theme of child abuse, notably in Revenant, which I thought excellent. But the references in Rex Miller's Frenzy, which deals with snuff movies, really seem to be exploitative. I resent it when I feel 'written down' to. Re: animal cruelty, I was interested to see recently someone react negatively to a scene in a James Herbert book where a dog gets killed with a power saw. The story which disturbed me most was an Ian McEwan story about a paedophile, a scene where the man passes some boys who are preparing to torture a cat. I'm still unable to detail the torture even vaguely here.
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Post by dem bones on May 6, 2008 13:08:33 GMT
Interesting discussion - glad you're not going to ban me, Dem! Nah, you were never in any danger. Though Johnny's certainly sailing a bit too close to the wind with: Not that there's anything wrong with supporting Liverpool I wonder if what may almost put you off horror is coming across a story early on which just happens to be a specific type to which you have an aversion. In my case it's torture. I didn't realise this fully till fairly recently, perhaps not till I watched Hostel and tried to watch Hostel 2, which I gave up on. And also when I had to include a couple of scenes of torture in a novel I'm working on at the moment. I did not at all enjoy writing these scenes and which are probably quite tame by comparison to scenes of that nature elsewhere as a consequence. This may explain why I have never liked Sir Charles Birkin's stories. His stories, brought out by Tandem years ago, I think pushed me back towards reading SF more at the time. It's also why I lost interest in the later Pan series - probably at the cost of coming across some good stories too as a consequence. David Charles Birkin is among my literary heroes, but I fully understand why others dislike and even despise his work - even the torture-free zones can be desperately bereft. John's criticism of Kowlongo Plaything - "a bit too unremittingly vile, pointless, and with no redeeming features (like entertainment value)" - is similar to a splenetic attack I've seen of Birkin's The Harlem Horror on John Pelan's Horrabin Hall. There are some Birkin stories which, had I read them first, I doubt I'd ever have gone near him again. With the Temperley torture-fest, I could see how it was shaping up (it really adds to the horror) and didn't want to go there, but did I stop reading? It only took me a few pages to know I was not going to enjoy the first book in 'James Darke's The Witches series no matter how ace the disco girl on the cover looks, but I stuck with it through unpleasantness upon unpleasantness upon .... bloody hated it!
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