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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 16, 2022 23:20:43 GMT
I need to come to Holmes' defense here. The stuff about Holmes not caring about anything that didn't apply directly to his profession and not wanting to crowd his mind-attic with extraneous information is pretty much confined to the first story, A Study in Scarlet." In several later adventures, Holmes displays a keen intellectual curiousity and broad knowledge base. Looking at things as a detached observer, I think Doyle's conception of the character evolved (for the better) over the course of his writing. Playing the "Holmes-was-a-real-person game," I would say that during their early days together, Holmes enjoyed putting the good doctor on by feigning ignorance of things that were not directly pertinent to his work. I said he was exceptional only in certain fields. I never said he was pig ignorant in everything else. In pastiches he is often portrayed as knowing everything. He obviously has a knowledge of literature, as I know that "The game is afoot" is a quote from Shakespeare's King Henry IV Part I, and Henry V. Also I know, as I saw it when I read it, that he quotes from a letter from Gustave Flaubert to Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin at the end of one of his stories. Only he gets the quote wrong. But really Doyle just probably added things when the mood took him, with no real thought for how future readers would try to create a history out of it, as he seems to have preferred his historical novels, and held them in much higher regard. I'd imagine he had a good education too. So picked up broader knowledge there. |
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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 16, 2022 23:22:00 GMT
I need to come to Holmes' defense here. The stuff about Holmes not caring about anything that didn't apply directly to his profession and not wanting to crowd his mind-attic with extraneous information is pretty much confined to the first story, A Study in Scarlet." In several later adventures, Holmes displays a keen intellectual curiousity and broad knowledge base. Looking at things as a detached observer, I think Doyle's conception of the character evolved (for the better) over the course of his writing. Playing the "Holmes-was-a-real-person game," I would say that during their early days together, Holmes enjoyed putting the good doctor on by feigning ignorance of things that were not directly pertinent to his work. Yes, I think I would have to agree with that. I mean, how could he "really" not know that the earth goes around the sun? An averagely intelligent schoolboy would have known that. Some people still think this. |
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Post by andydecker on Jan 16, 2022 23:32:16 GMT
I mean, how could he "really" not know that the earth goes around the sun? An averagely intelligent schoolboy would have known that. Actually it is said in the story in conjunction with Holmes famous - and quite ridiculous - brain-as-an-empty-attic theory and that this knowledge is as useful to him in his work as if the earth rotates around the moon. I don't know if the reader should really believe Holmes here, at the time Watson doesn't still know what his roommate does. But it is quite good as a characterisation, if it doesn't help Holmes in his work, it is worthless knowledge. In one of first eps of Elementary they used this bit quite amusingly. Holmes demonstrates his theory with a glass of water and Watson just snorts. |
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david
Crab On The Rampage
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 0:08:57 GMT
Yes, I think I would have to agree with that. I mean, how could he "really" not know that the earth goes around the sun? An averagely intelligent schoolboy would have known that. Some people still think this. Sadly, very true. |
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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 17, 2022 0:33:50 GMT
David, I looked and there are 17 John Dickson Carr books available on my ebook site, along with 4 available soon. I won't list them, as it's an effort, but what are recommended titles? There are a few Gideon Fell mysteries published by Polygon.  The rest are published by Open Road Media. With rather bland covers.  |
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david
Crab On The Rampage
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 11:31:36 GMT
Overall, the Fell novels are my favorites. I think the best of them is The Crooked Hinge, and I would also recommend The Three Coffins (The Hollow Man), He Who Whispers, and Till Death Do Us Part. Of the Merrivale novels, I would particularly recommend The Judas Window (The Crossbow Murders), The Ten Teacups, and Nine-and Death Makes Ten. The last takes place on a ship crossing the Atlantic during WWII, and I like it as much for the overall atmosphere as for any cleverness of the plot. The early Bencolin novels have a Grand Guignol flavor to them. I particularly like The Lost Gallows.
Of the non-series mysteries, The Burning Court stands out. There are a number of good historical mysteries. I reallly enjoyed Fear is the Same, even though there are some critics that don't rate it very highly. Carr excelled in creating a convincing period feel in all of them.
Some of Carr's later books get a little tedious at times, and the fact that virtually all of the male characters in them act as if they were hyper-hormoned adolescents can get pretty annoying. But on the whole, I think most of Carr's works are worth a read.
And oh, a number of his radio plays have been published and many of the original broadcasts survive. They are a lot of fun. But, as you can see, I could go on and on, and I should probably stop here...
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david
Crab On The Rampage
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 11:51:44 GMT
I said he was exceptional only in certain fields. I never said he was pig ignorant in everything else. In pastiches he is often portrayed as knowing everything. He obviously has a knowledge of literature, as I know that "The game is afoot" is a quote from Shakespeare's King Henry IV Part I, and Henry V. Also I know, as I saw it when I read it, that he quotes from a letter from Gustave Flaubert to Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin at the end of one of his stories. Only he gets the quote wrong. But really Doyle just probably added things when the mood took him, with no real thought for how future readers would try to create a history out of it, as he seems to have preferred his historical novels, and held them in much higher regard. I'd imagine he had a good education too. So picked up broader knowledge there. I forget which story it is in, but Watson talks about Holmes directing an extended conversation that ranges over a number of esoteric topics including airships of the future. Then there was his extraordinary interest in bees. And while there would be fields of study that would be particularly important to a detective (distinguishing types of tobaccos and varieties of soil to name just a couple that play prominent roles in the stories), I would figure that a detective would want to possess knowledge that ranges over several fields because you never know what might be pertinent to a particular case. But I guess it really comes down to how any individual reader interprets the character. |
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david
Crab On The Rampage
Posts: 49
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 11:59:10 GMT
I need to come to Holmes' defense here. The stuff about Holmes not caring about anything that didn't apply directly to his profession and not wanting to crowd his mind-attic with extraneous information is pretty much confined to the first story, A Study in Scarlet." In several later adventures, Holmes displays a keen intellectual curiousity and broad knowledge base. Looking at things as a detached observer, I think Doyle's conception of the character evolved (for the better) over the course of his writing. Playing the "Holmes-was-a-real-person game," I would say that during their early days together, Holmes enjoyed putting the good doctor on by feigning ignorance of things that were not directly pertinent to his work. I said he was exceptional only in certain fields. I never said he was pig ignorant in everything else. In pastiches he is often portrayed as knowing everything. He obviously has a knowledge of literature, as I know that "The game is afoot" is a quote from Shakespeare's King Henry IV Part I, and Henry V. Also I know, as I saw it when I read it, that he quotes from a letter from Gustave Flaubert to Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin at the end of one of his stories. Only he gets the quote wrong. But really Doyle just probably added things when the mood took him, with no real thought for how future readers would try to create a history out of it, as he seems to have preferred his historical novels, and held them in much higher regard. Yes. I think Doyle's avid readers have put much more thought into these things than he ever did. I can picture him telling people like me to get a life, a la William Shatner in that infamous SNL sketch. |
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Post by Michael Connolly on Jan 17, 2022 12:05:18 GMT
Overall, the Fell novels are my favorites. I think the best of them is The Crooked Hinge, and I would also recommend The Three Coffins ( The Hollow Man), He Who Whispers, and Till Death Do Us Part. Of the Merrivale novels, I would particularly recommend The Judas Window ( The Crossbow Murders), The Ten Teacups, and Nine-and Death Makes Ten. The last takes place on a ship crossing the Atlantic during WWII, and I like it as much for the overall atmosphere as for any cleverness of the plot. The early Bencolin novels have a Grand Guignol flavor to them. I particularly like The Lost Gallows.Of the non-series mysteries, The Burning Court stands out. There are a number of good historical mysteries. I reallly enjoyed Fear is the Same, even though there are some critics that don't rate it very highly. Carr excelled in creating a convincing period feel in all of them. Some of Carr's later books get a little tedious at times, and the fact that virtually all of the male characters in them act as if they were hyper-hormoned adolescents can get pretty annoying. But on the whole, I think most of Carr's works are worth a read. And oh, a number of his radio plays have been published and many of the original broadcasts survive. They are a lot of fun. But, as you can see, I could go on and on, and I should probably stop here... If this means anything, I think that John Dickson Carr's novels are unreadable. |
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david
Crab On The Rampage
Posts: 49
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 12:22:16 GMT
Overall, the Fell novels are my favorites. I think the best of them is The Crooked Hinge, and I would also recommend The Three Coffins ( The Hollow Man), He Who Whispers, and Till Death Do Us Part. Of the Merrivale novels, I would particularly recommend The Judas Window ( The Crossbow Murders), The Ten Teacups, and Nine-and Death Makes Ten. The last takes place on a ship crossing the Atlantic during WWII, and I like it as much for the overall atmosphere as for any cleverness of the plot. The early Bencolin novels have a Grand Guignol flavor to them. I particularly like The Lost Gallows.Of the non-series mysteries, The Burning Court stands out. There are a number of good historical mysteries. I reallly enjoyed Fear is the Same, even though there are some critics that don't rate it very highly. Carr excelled in creating a convincing period feel in all of them. Some of Carr's later books get a little tedious at times, and the fact that virtually all of the male characters in them act as if they were hyper-hormoned adolescents can get pretty annoying. But on the whole, I think most of Carr's works are worth a read. And oh, a number of his radio plays have been published and many of the original broadcasts survive. They are a lot of fun. But, as you can see, I could go on and on, and I should probably stop here... If this means anything, I think that John Dickson Carr's novels are unreadable. You are not alone. As someone here noted, Julian Symons felt much the same way. Different readers have different tastes. |
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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 17, 2022 12:45:56 GMT
I said he was exceptional only in certain fields. I never said he was pig ignorant in everything else. In pastiches he is often portrayed as knowing everything. He obviously has a knowledge of literature, as I know that "The game is afoot" is a quote from Shakespeare's King Henry IV Part I, and Henry V. Also I know, as I saw it when I read it, that he quotes from a letter from Gustave Flaubert to Amantine Lucile Aurore Dupin at the end of one of his stories. Only he gets the quote wrong. But really Doyle just probably added things when the mood took him, with no real thought for how future readers would try to create a history out of it, as he seems to have preferred his historical novels, and held them in much higher regard. Yes. I think Doyle's avid readers have put much more thought into these things than he ever did. I can picture him telling people like me to get a life, a la William Shatner in that infamous SNL sketch. I'm not being critical. It's a fun thing to do, and the fact it isn't planned out by the author makes it more like detective work, and probably more enjoyable. |
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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 17, 2022 12:52:48 GMT
And oh, a number of his radio plays have been published and many of the original broadcasts survive. They are a lot of fun. But, as you can see, I could go on and on, and I should probably stop here... My ebook site does audiobooks, and three of these popped up when I searched for Carr: Suspense Collection Written by Black Eye Entertainment ![]()  ![]() ![]() Blurb: Conceived as a potential radio vehicle for Alfred Hitchcock to direct, Suspense was a radio series of epic proportion. It aired on CBS from 1942 to 1962 and is considered by many to be the best mystery/drama series of the golden age. Known as "Radio's Outstanding Theater of Thrills", it focused on suspenseful stories starring the biggest names in Hollywood. Early in the run, the episodes were hosted by the 'Man In Black' who, from an omniscient perch, narrated stories of people thrown into dangerous or bizarre situations with plots that, at the very end, usually had an unseen twist or two. Hollywood's finest actors jumped at the chance to appear on Suspense, including: Cary Grant, James Stewart, Alan Ladd, Henry Fonda, Humphrey Bogart, Bette Davis and Orson Welles. Scripts were by John Dickson Carr, Lucille Fletcher, James Poe, Ray Bradbury and many others. Running more than 20 years, Suspense aired nearly 1,000 radio broadcasts. It made the transition to television in 1949, but it was much better suited for radio where the "theatre of the mind" could run free This is Volume 1 content: "Dead of the Night" w/ Robert Cummings "I Had an Alibi" w/ Keenan Wynn "A Tale of Two Sisters" w/ Claire Trevor and Nancy Kelly "Cricket" w/ Margaret O'Brien and Dame May Whitty "A Guy Gets Lonely" w/ Dane Clark "Two Sharp Knives" w/ John Payne "The Story of Ivy" w/ Ann Richards "The Dealings of Mr. Markham" w/ Henry Daniell and Joan Lorring "Footfalls" w/ J. Carrol Naish "Bank Holiday" w/ Bonita Granville "A Man in the House" w/ Joan Lorring "Murder for Myra" w/ Lloyd Nolan |
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david
Crab On The Rampage
Posts: 49
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Post by david on Jan 17, 2022 12:54:51 GMT
Yes. I think Doyle's avid readers have put much more thought into these things than he ever did. I can picture him telling people like me to get a life, a la William Shatner in that infamous SNL sketch. I'm not being critical. It's a fun thing to do, and the fact it isn't planned out by the author makes it more like detective work, and probably more enjoyable. Didn't think you were being critical. And I agree, it's fun. |
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Post by Michael Connolly on Jan 17, 2022 12:58:07 GMT
If this means anything, I think that John Dickson Carr's novels are unreadable. You are not alone. As someone here noted, Julian Symons felt much the same way. Different readers have different tastes. I'm okay with John Dickson Carr's short stories. It will be interesting to compare his six stories in The Exploits of Sherlock Holmes (where all of this started) with the six written by Adrian Conan Doyle. This CBC cover of the book was already on the Vault. I prefer it to the cover of the original edition.  |
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Post by šrincess šµuvstarr on Jan 17, 2022 13:02:30 GMT
You are not alone. As someone here noted, Julian Symons felt much the same way. Different readers have different tastes. I'm okay with John Dickson Carr's short stories. It will be interesting to compare his six stories in The Exploits of Sherlock Holmes (where all of this started) with the six written by Adrian Conan Doyle. This CBC cover of the book was already on the Vault. I prefer it to the cover of the original edition. I have an ebook of this. I could upload an opening paragraph of each author for comparison. But you would have to tell me which ones were each. Is it the last six that are Adrian Conan Doyle? Edited to say you don't have to. It tells me in the contents. |
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