Is Vault of Evil anti-intellectual?

[David A. Riley]

dem said: "When Des introduced this thread i was terrified that a trip down memory lane to revisit the incident that dare not speak its name (and sequel) would lead to a fresh exchange of hostilities, but it's ... not been so terrible. You're not such a bad bunch, you know."

What do you mean? I've just completed a ju-ju doll out of copies of Des's old stories.

I know. I know. I've been watching too many Amicus movies, but...

[justin]

Couldn't resist joining the debate, specifically around the use of the forum to plug products... as I do that more than most!

And also when Franklin "Shergar" Marsh is posting more often than you, you know you're operating under the radar!

In the early days of The Fanatic, it was publicity on this forum that provided the much needed injection of life blood in terms of having a target market, an injection of early subscribers and feedback/encouragement. If it wasn't for Dem back then, the mag may have snuffed out very quickly.

In a day and age where the likes of Forbidden Planet is homogenised (spell-check please?!?) in terms of stock and Borders is dead, how else would people stumble across a mag like The Fanatic? And I think that applies to other books etc as well. Hopefully because of the nature of the internet, unwanted posts get ignored or can be removed.

The Fanatic and current vaulters (well posters anyway) have a much smaller cross-over now then three years ago, but any mention brings in more subscribers.

My personal bug-bear is those that come on to the site to plug their e-bay sales, or try and get books valued. I recently enclosed a sale list of second hand books to Fanatic subscribers in order to raise some funds for the mag, but there's no way I would have come on this site and tried to promote it.

I think this site is self-regulating to a great extent, in that anyone that tries on any nonsense gets put right pretty quickly. And it relies on the members using their common-sense i.e. I'm just helping a mate with a 'zine on British horror and cult films. Would I feel comfortable about plugging it on the Vault? Yes, because I think the material is a fit and believe the vaulters would be interested in knowing about it.

The forum is anti-intellectual in that I get the impression people are being themselves in terms of expressing their opinions, and seem to be able to differentiate between The Sucking Pit or Casting of the Runes; able to enjoy both on different levels.

In summary, I see the Vault as an anarchist utopia, an underground network joining up publications, events and lost souls who might otherwise be blissfully unaware of one another. Only kidding. Don't waste too much time trying to analyse it, just enjoy it!

PS I have a load of carpet tiles going cheap....

[Craig Herbertson]

I stress I wasn't selling that 29th Pan Book of Horrors I like the exchange system and ebay is a nightmare for p and P now.

[Craig Herbertson]

Fantastic magazine it looks too Justin and defeats every critic of the small press

[dem]

Oct 25, 2010 20:33:49 GMT justin said:

PS I have a load of carpet tiles going cheap....

i already got 'em, justin. 100 nice black & grey ones, "came from an office, that's all you need to know, mate".

that self-publicity thing has become a blooming albatross around our collective necks and it would be a relief to put it to bed once and for all (if only). correct me if i'm wrong, but i can't remember anyone complaining when an author came on to let us know their book or mag was available, even if their only reason for joining was to inform us of the fact? It was when a small few (no names, no pack drill - i really don't want to go back there) wouldn't shut up about it, posting hourly updates of the "I just got another great review!", "And now - here's my banner!", "Here's a link to where you can vote for me in the BFS Awards!" variety when half of us are scratching our heads thinking "who the fuck are you and why have you mistaken us for your fan club?" Truth be told, i know at least some of us would still pass on their product if we saw it going for 50p in the charity shop, only now we'd do it for reasons other than "doesn't really sound like my thing." we've a number of authors who contribute TONS to Vault and i have to force their faces against a red hot stove ring to get 'em to confess when they've something out! i love them so much for this i usually end up plugging their dubious wares meself.

Justin, you SHOULD put the contents of this and any future Fanatic catalogues on here because (a) it's helping to fund a magazine we many of us see as the much better Vault you can take to bed with you and (b) because it's not unlikely that it will include loads of stuff our more pulp-crazed element are after. Mark - as mentioned on another thread (in case you didn't see it), you should do the same. You've both contributed hugely to the board so take what little advantage from it you can - you earned it.

[franklinmarsh]

Oct 26, 2010 8:00:20 GMT dem said:

[for this i usually end up plugging their dubious wares meself.

Can I have that fiver back?

Hear, hear! If'n youse plugging something that adds to the discussion, plug away.

Justin - Dem will want a royalty fee if you use the fantastic 'The Vault You CAN Take To Bed With You' line. He's a natural ad man.

[weirdmonger]

Oct 26, 2010 8:00:20 GMT dem said:

that self-publicity thing has become a blooming albatross around our collective necks

It was just at the time - as I recall - that site representatives -- or who seemed to be site representatives to the VoE uninitiatated -- set up specific threads for some authors to discuss their works. It was only natural that they went back to that thread to give news on that work, believing that people who did not want to know about it could avoid that thread.

But that is water under the bridge. The albatross is dead but no longer around anyone's necks. I, for one, now have a much better idea of what VoE is all about and I value it as part of my armoury of interests on the internet, mainly as a lurker.

[pulphack]

i think dem's got it right - it was that thing of people plugging themselves endlessly on here, which i still can't understand as this is for people to mostly discuss old books and there are much better places for them to go - which they have, and to their benefit, no doubt.

as for the 'anti-intellectual' thing - i don't see what your issue is, des, and why you're still agonising about such things. form and function: some fiction has depth because it intends to say something, and some fiction just wants to entertain on a surface level. and just because some of us like the surface stuff as well and - please note - treat it as work ON ITS OWN MERITS AND INTENTIONS, does that make us anti-intellectual? i don't think anyone here is going to confuse Pierce Nace with MR James!

it's the problem anyone who does anything creative faces at some point: is this worthwhile? am i wasting my time?

truth is, no story has ever saved a single soul. the only way a writer can change the world directly is if someone like stephen king gave all his royalties to famine relief (for example) and even then it would only be a scratch on the surface. but, it can be said that some fiction has inspired people to take up professions where they have made a difference. that might be rare, but i suspect it's what artists who want to be important can cling to. still not a direct difference, though, is it?

so in an attempt to justify sodding about for fun or a living or both, artists make up theories about how important their work is. yeah, to you and to some of the people who like it. but not even all of them. get over it.

ultimately, if you do what you do, find a few like-minded souls, and don't harm anyone along the way, you're still doing better than most.

don't worry about it des. you have people who like your work and your reviews because it makes them think. probably to your surprise i'm one of them. you're not going to change the world. none of us are. but we're not going to make it worse, and that's possibly more important.

[andydecker]

I like the vault. It introduced me to a lot of books I never heard about and featured a lot I have on my shelves which nobody I knew ever heard about or cared about. It is just fun the discuss the merits of Guy N. Smith or Gerald Suster with knowledegable folks. They are unique - the old books - and they really don´t make ´em like that any more. This isn´t a complaint, just an observation. The world moved on like it always does.

The vault put me in contact with people like Justin or dem and some others, and for that I am grateful. I like the relaxed atmosphere.

This self-advertising is a double-edged sword. For today´s generation this is seemingly a normal thing. It is just alien to me to post my whereabouts today on Facebook or whatever. I like my privacy. But there is a fine line between an anouncement (information) or relentless advertising. There are some writers I won´t buy because I think their online persona so obnoxious I don´t want to give them my money. This is especially true for comics. They just irk me with their neverending boasts of greatness. Maybe I am just petty, who can say

[weirdmonger]

Pulphack, You're right, with two slight disagreements on my part--

I refer to my point about dedicated threads mentioned in my previous post, i.e. that the 'last 30 posts' view gives a different slant on things than when only exploring the threads you want to read specifically. You possibly can't blame new members for misunderstanding that. Looking at VoE 'last thirty posts' in the last few days may make some people think the whole forum is this thread!

I don't think I agonise about this 'intellectual' issue, if you read my original post. It was stirred by a couple of comments by dem recently on other threads - and was brainstorming or attempting to be a catalyst (albeit a schizophrenic one).

Thanks for your kind comments with which you finish.

des

[Thana Niveau]

Killer Crabs Ate My Ishiguro!

I come from the more literary camp (studied literature at uni), so people might assume I'm an "intellectual" type - ie, wanting to read extra meaning into every story, looking for "themes" and so on. And there are plenty of multilayered stories (not just horror) that I enjoy. I love Nabokov, McEwan and Ishiguro (et al) because they're bloody good writers, not because their books look good on the shelf. (Actually, you can't even SEE their books on the shelves at Probert Towers because all the genre stuff is double-stacked and they're buried away somewhere in all the pulp!)

When it comes to horror, I embrace the entire range - from subtle ghostie stuff to torture porn. I'm probably most at home in Hill House or with Beckoning Fair Ones, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy killer mantises. And not (I hasten to add) in an "Ooh, let's go slumming with giant beasties!" kind of way. Maybe that makes me an ex-intellectual?

The Vault has been a real education for me and I constantly find reviews of older, more obscure stories here that I then go and read, many of which I might otherwise not have known about. There are plenty of places online where one can hear all about new stuff, so it's nice that the Vault stays true to its roots in showcasing all the pulpy stuff you don't hear about elsewhere. It's the secret antechamber to the main library, the place where the really dodgy books are kept. And I like it that way.

[weirdmonger]

Oct 26, 2010 10:16:43 GMT weirdmonger said:

I don't think I agonise about this 'intellectual' issue,

Sorry, I did agonise about it on my first post. Having just re-read it. It's just that i'm not agonising about it today!

I empathise with Thana Niveau's post. I, too, have mixed up shelves like hers. And studied literature at uni (in late sixties).

[dem]

Oct 26, 2010 10:16:43 GMT weirdmonger said:

It was stirred by a couple of comments by dem recently on other threads - and was brainstorming or attempting to be a catalyst (albeit a schizophrenic one).

des

Des, never take any of my outbursts too seriously. i'm a moany miserable bastard, you ought to know that by now.

Oct 26, 2010 10:12:51 GMT andydecker said:

But there is a fine line between an anouncement (information) or relentless advertising. There are some writers I won´t buy because I think their online persona so obnoxious I don´t want to give them my money. This is especially true for comics. They just irk me with their neverending boasts of greatness. Maybe I am just petty, who can say

Well, if you are being petty, that's two of us, andy. i know, i know - me scowling at others for a perceived "obnoxious internet presence" - but it's true.

Oct 26, 2010 8:10:10 GMT franklinmarsh said:

Oct 26, 2010 8:00:20 GMT dem said:

Can I have that fiver back?

no, i'm giving it to Lady P for "It's the secret antechamber to the main library, the place where the really dodgy books are kept."

Jesus, what a love-in! it's getting bloody embarrassing now. When can we go back to churning out a load of mindless garbage about Dracula And The Virgins Of The Undead? incidentally, i found that massive The Vampire Archive collection in the library this morning. might make a start on that once i've laid me tiles.

[Johnlprobert]

Oct 26, 2010 10:27:58 GMT Thana Niveau said:

Maybe that makes me an ex-intellectual?

Well you're certainly a sexy intellectual

[dem]

i'm going to have one of my "lie downs" ....