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Post by Calenture on Nov 14, 2008 15:51:52 GMT
Coming back after a while I thought I'd best track this argument to its beginning. After reading the four pages, there were too many people I wanted to quote. Mixed feelings, I guess. I probably wouldn't have made my FC5 post outside of the workshop if I'd scrolled further down the latest posts first. Sorry about that.
I loved the Gruesome Cargoes site and contributed a little to it along with others. Sadly the content and interest was too limited (being pre-war horror), and eventually it got merged with this site. Possibly there's a lesson there - I don't know. I don't have much of a taste for Skinhead fiction and Westerns. The various genres all seem to be welcome here - Westerns, Skinhead, Detective (others will have to correct me if I'm wrong).
If the book-pimping started with Filthy Creations, we all know that the need for it began with members who like writing. Steve suggested early on that another site should be used for FC. Maybe he was right. I wouldn't mind, and even knocked a site together once. The downside of all the new writing for me - as a writer/co-editor - is that so much time is spent reading, drawing, printing, and there's no time left for reading other fiction and posting on it.
I wouldn't mind starting another site for FC. But I'd probably spend more time at the Vault. Whatever Dem wants is fine by me.
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Post by killercrab on Nov 14, 2008 16:18:57 GMT
If the book-pimping started with Filthy Creations, we all know that the need for it began with members who like writing. Steve suggested early on that another site should be used for FC. Maybe he was right. >>
A similar thought occured to me too back then - though I thought a creative annex group of VOE members would of been the perfect way to go - VAULT CREATIVE. I make my living drawing and genre stuff at that as you know - so I love talking shop - but I'm also aware that VOE was never designed to be such a platform and I worried quietly to myself when writing started to encourage more writers to uncloak. Also to be fair not all writers here thrust their work on the forum but at the end of a long dusty day the lines blur.
ade
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Post by bushwick on Nov 14, 2008 17:46:40 GMT
Have read all of this and thought I should add my piece...
To me, this site has been absolutely invaluable and though it sounds dramatic, can honestly say it's changed my life. I had bought a couple of old Pans second-hand, remembering them from childhood, and googled 'Alex White - The Clinic', and found this place. I've always been into horror, was obsessed with it as a kid, to the point my folks took me to a child psychologist! facts! (got a clean bill of health, but anyway, ahem). Over recent years had absolutely no interest in the general vibe of 'modern horror' - I know there's good stuff out there, but I've always been delving into splatter and exploitation films from the 70s and 80s...it's a vibe thing.
If it wasn't for this place, I maybe wouldn't have started writing again. Since joining, I've read an average of 4 books a week and have filled my head with knowledge about an era that fascinates me. I wouldn't have been published by Rog and my life would be one aspect less rich.
I don't want this board to close down. I want to come here and read posts by the likes of Steve, Pulphack, Justin, FM, who can dissect pulp work in an intelligent sense and a social framework. Some of the writing on this board is very, very good. Personally, I'm never going to go on the BFS site, as the word 'fantasy' makes me shudder - give me exploding heads, bloodthirsty insects, murderous cuckolded husbands, giant crabs, vicious Civil War veterans, etc etc. I'm not arsed about reading people's promotional stuff, AS LONG AS there is interesting stuff for me to read about crazy old books.
The key to me, is the PULP, not the horror. The same approach as exploitation movies: working within prescribed boundaries, with certain sets of rules, limited by time/money, and banging out inspired, exciting work - invariably made by intelligent people with bits of humour and comment in there. I'm not really interested in anything from after about 1990, both in books and film, with a very few exceptions. I know that's fascist but hey ho.
As for pimping, I apologise for putting a thing for my daft mini-comic in the comics section, I'll move it now. Please don't close Vault! I'll make an effort to put more book reviews up.
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Post by weirdmonger on Nov 14, 2008 18:21:49 GMT
Heartfelt and empathisable. Thanks. Perhaps you've single-handed saved the VAULT. Have read all of this and thought I should add my piece... To me, this site has been absolutely invaluable and though it sounds dramatic, can honestly say it's changed my life. I had bought a couple of old Pans second-hand, remembering them from childhood, and googled 'Alex White - The Clinic', and found this place. I've always been into horror, was obsessed with it as a kid, to the point my folks took me to a child psychologist! facts! (got a clean bill of health, but anyway, ahem). Over recent years had absolutely no interest in the general vibe of 'modern horror' - I know there's good stuff out there, but I've always been delving into splatter and exploitation films from the 70s and 80s...it's a vibe thing. If it wasn't for this place, I maybe wouldn't have started writing again. Since joining, I've read an average of 4 books a week and have filled my head with knowledge about an era that fascinates me. I wouldn't have been published by Rog and my life would be one aspect less rich. I don't want this board to close down. I want to come here and read posts by the likes of Steve, Pulphack, Justin, FM, who can dissect pulp work in an intelligent sense and a social framework. Some of the writing on this board is very, very good. Personally, I'm never going to go on the BFS site, as the word 'fantasy' makes me shudder - give me exploding heads, bloodthirsty insects, murderous cuckolded husbands, giant crabs, vicious Civil War veterans, etc etc. I'm not arsed about reading people's promotional stuff, AS LONG AS there is interesting stuff for me to read about crazy old books. The key to me, is the PULP, not the horror. The same approach as exploitation movies: working within prescribed boundaries, with certain sets of rules, limited by time/money, and banging out inspired, exciting work - invariably made by intelligent people with bits of humour and comment in there. I'm not really interested in anything from after about 1990, both in books and film, with a very few exceptions. I know that's fascist but hey ho. As for pimping, I apologise for putting a thing for my daft mini-comic in the comics section, I'll move it now. Please don't close Vault! I'll make an effort to put more book reviews up.
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Post by The Lurker In The Shadows on Nov 14, 2008 18:50:09 GMT
I've been following this thread, trying to decide on my own response. I've been guilty of "pimping" my own radio plays when they get their infrequent airings, not so much as an attempt to say "Wow, look at me," (to be honest, I'm generally uncomfortable drawing attention to myself) but because I thought the subject matter and attempt at old-style chills might be of interest to some folk here. But, as I said, I'm not particularly comfortable pushing my own stuff, so I'll refrain from doing so in future.
I've not really posted on much of late. Not through lack of interest, as I still come on and read threads, both old and new, on a daily basis. (To be honest, I'd barely registered that there was a 30 latest posts function and simply dipped in wherever took my fancy.) But because of things associated with this "life" thing others have mentioned. That said, I had just got back to working up more synopses of the "Ghosts & Scholars" issues I have. But, as these were published after 1979, it seems I'd be better holding off... at least till it's sorted out just what the site should contain.
I can understand why people might be concerned over what might be seen as a dilution of the Vault's original aim. I can also understand why others, who have joined after the site began to expand its perameters are now feeling like they're being attacked for a crime they didn't even realise they were committing.
The subheading at the top of the page, "Brit Horror Pulp Plus!" is possibly causing confusion. Is it purely horror, in which case where do westerns and skinheads fit in? Is it purely pulp, which would seem to rule out certain older writers - MRJ and some of his contemporaries? Or does the "plus" suggest its's these things and more?
At the end of the day, Dem started the site and has kept it running through various upheavals and I suppose it's really up to him to decide what the boundaries are.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Nov 14, 2008 20:21:45 GMT
The vault is a great place. Provides me with a lot. I am not particualrly interested in westerns or skinhead stuff and I like fantasy and sf. This is a horror site with a bunch of other stuff. Even so I've been introduced to so much that, while it might be only of peripheral interest to me, is still interesting enough. I'd forgotten I read JT Edson, the rats or Bovver Boys, or that I owned a plastic model of the prisoner of Castlemare, until I entered the vault
The people here are a great bunch. I often laugh out loud just reading the odd post. I often find things - information, books I would never find otherwise.
I've noticed its very easy for opinions to be misunderstood and arguments to snowball in chat rooms. The medium goes against sound argument. Its prone to error and ambiguity - partly because people don't take as much time over replies as they might in another medium and we also don't read replies with the same intent.
I would also make the point that generally speaking horror aficionados are hardly mainstream. We tend towards chaos and despair and feel uncomfortable under cold lights. Maybe Dem feels pressurised by the success of the vault? Maybe we just need to lighten up?
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stephenbacon
Crab On The Rampage
www.stephenbacon.co.uk
Posts: 78
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Post by stephenbacon on Nov 14, 2008 21:35:26 GMT
I often frequent Vault of Evil, Shocklines, BFS message board, TTA forum, and the Ramsey Campbell message board, and you tend to find the same problem afflicts them all; the 'originals' begin to display a degree of snobbery when the board starts to evolve into something different.
I first learned about VoE from Rog, when I heard about it on another forum. I was initially drawn here because of the reference aspect of the older books; seeing the covers was reward enough, but to read the opinions or comments by other users was also a breath of fresh air.
There's absolutely no reason why users can't just read the threads that interest them, and ignore the rest. I know I do. A lot of the problems on Shocklines tend to be when different 'factions' have opposing views. The politics of message boards CAN be frustrating but the easiest way to deal with it is to just look for the members whose opinions interest you, and follow their musings. On the Shocklines boards I think the British writers tend to stick together and have a sub-community amid the larger American core. I don't see why this forum should be any different.
I've also read comments on here that suggested VoE is above other forums like Shocklines, because the posts never descended into abuse and stupidity. After reading some of the child-like comments from earlier, I think that's one myth you've definitely destroyed.
I'm probably not too popular on here because I normally like to read, rather than post (for the reference aspect I mentioned earlier). I usually visit at least three or four times a week.
Most of the vitriol seems to be directed at Allyson, Caroline, Troo, and Des. It's true that Des, Allyson, and Troo are involved in 'new horror' but if you'd bothered to read any of their work you'd realise that their influences are based firmly in the traditions of the genre, not in the flippant style that some of you quote. John L P is a 'new horror writer' (admittedly, with his feet firmly in the pulp camp) but would his work be considered less favourable because he mentioned on here his Ash Tree Press collection? I sincerely hope not. As for Des, his background and history in the genre cannot be overstated. Caroline seems to have a keen enthusiasm for horror, period. Who cares whether it's post-war, pre 1979, or contemporary? As far as I've seen, her passion has been interpreted as 'pimping', when in fact she's been wholly supportive and enthusiastic on more than one level.
Was I aware before that I would be frowned down upon for mentioning 'new' horror, or for bringing people's attention to points that I thought might be of interest? No. Do I now feel excluded by the originals, many of whom I've exchanged pleasant PMs or emails with? Absolutely.
I buy a great deal of contemporary horror. Some of it is not to my taste. Someone mentioned that he'd purchased Best New Horror and didn't like what he read. Let me tell you this: Best New Horror is not JUST what's available in the vibrant world of the genre currently. And for the writers out there who complain about - and I wouldn't know who you are, because you don't pimp yourself - the only way to change the genre towards your own liking would be to write well, to improve the quality, to shift the style towards something you prefer.
I'm 38 years old. I love Guy N SMith, Pan Horror, Shaun Hutson, NEL anthologies. But I also love contemporary practitioners of the art, like Allyson Bird, Mark Samuels, Tony Richards, Thomas Ligotti, Michael Marshall Smith, Gary McMahon, et al.
When there's so much excellent fiction out there, to do anything else seems to be incredibly obtuse.
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Post by carolinec on Nov 14, 2008 23:26:14 GMT
Thanks Stephen! ;D
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coral
New Face In Hell
Posts: 3
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Post by coral on Nov 15, 2008 1:48:40 GMT
This is great, I had to rejoin to tell you all I'm laughing so much I've weed myself!
Demonik, you can't really complain after posting yourself in some of these non pre1979 posts, and science fiction threads etc. If you are disappointed now, look to yourself for giving out false impressions, no wonder half the folk here are now confused. You certainly led me to believe that putting up a submissions thread for my magazine was ok to do. I'm stupid though, and therefore easily confused...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Des is a genius, and has more talent in his little finger than do most of the rest of the board put together, how daft to make him feel unwelcome. And as for Caroline, how anyone could object to somebody as kind and enthusiastic as she is, well it's just mean mindedness. If Troo was only ever here to do promotion I missed that completely, despite the fact I used to post here a lot(and am probably a large part of the complaint because of it, ha ha). I must have been talking to a Troobot on other subjects then. Even "network are us" Allyson had started to post more often.
No real life conversation is static, internet's no different, you stick a diverse bunch of folk in a room (forum) and they're going to witter on about this, that and the other. The best way to keep this forum pure would be not to have any members, humans being what they are.
Anyhoo, carry on, it's as entertaining as anything on the telly these days.
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Post by Calenture on Nov 15, 2008 3:37:05 GMT
...Maybe we just need to lighten up? This is great, I had to rejoin to tell you all I'm laughing so much I've weed myself!... Just looked through all the comments above, and they're interesting, well-reasoned and heartfelt. Yeh, we do take the Vault pretty seriously; it's changed lives, including mine. On the other hand, life's too short (and this place is too interesting) to be serious all the time. I was very happy when Franklin dubbed me 'Vault clown' shortly after I joined (or was it Funky who said that? Anyway...) ...Anyway, the first thread I rescued from the old Vault was Lionel Fanshaw's. I still don't mind putting up another site for FC, and Bushwick's welcome there with his comic thread, too. In fact, I'd insist on his presence and scatological sagas to keep things from getting too serious. No wonder the smileys went awol here! I don't think that it's what came into the Vault that caused a problem. It's what went out. It seems to have lost its sense of humour and the absurd. The Vault's a living entity. Whether it'll survive in a time capsule bottled in formaldehyde... Loud roll of drums.
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Post by killercrab on Nov 15, 2008 5:29:28 GMT
I still don't mind putting up another site for FC, and Bushwick's welcome there with his comic thread, too. >>
I'd like to see Bushwick's comic ! Is it online anywhere Noah?
ade
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Post by franklinmarsh on Nov 15, 2008 8:39:46 GMT
Well said, Rog! (I never called you the Vault clown, honest!)
Flogging the memory I seem to recall that the original site was set up because a couple of people had been enthused by some book threads on a film site concerning the Pan Books Of Horror and NEL horror novels of the 1970s. There was no agenda, not even a hidden one. People just banged on about their own particular interests. This gradually became a quest to discover as much as possible about forgotten authors, cover artists, editors, publishing houses , along with two kinds of reviews. One which would rip the book to shreds with great affection, the other attempting to elevate indefensible sex/violence/non-PC tosh into literary masterpieces. Although there was a kind of consensus that the golden age for Brit pulp paperbacks was roughly 1969 - 1989, that didn't stop The Devil Rides Out (1934) or the first Pan (1959) along with hordes of other drivel getting trashed. If it was a Horror Antho, or a hack work churned out by some poor sod desperately trying to earn a crust at the time, and who would now rather forget or disown it, so much the better. Books that were irreplacebly of their time, or contained dubious product placement were also treasured . I may be wrong but I think it's that aspect of the board that Dem is missing.
And a lot of people were genuinely hoping that this sort of thing would make a comeback!
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Nov 15, 2008 10:03:17 GMT
Great isn't it.
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Post by bushwick on Nov 15, 2008 10:17:53 GMT
I still don't mind putting up another site for FC, and Bushwick's welcome there with his comic thread, too. >> I'd like to see Bushwick's comic ! Is it online anywhere Noah? ade chuck us a PM with your address and I'll send you one Ade. I am a primitive man with no scanner, so I haven't got much online (couple of things on the Bomb Sandwich blog but that's it). Have more stuff ready to print but must get organised. ANYWAY. If this board does go under, at least I know what I'm looking for now, and will follow the work of some of its members. I hope to God it doesn't though, as I don't know where else to go to talk about this stuff...
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Post by severance on Nov 15, 2008 17:04:42 GMT
"The worst thing about new books is that they keep us from reading the old ones." - Joseph Joubert
Not sure there's much left for me to say - so I'm not going to try...
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