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Post by franklinmarsh on Nov 8, 2010 15:30:05 GMT
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Post by lemming13 on Nov 8, 2010 16:10:40 GMT
As a Kindle owner and a member of the Kindle forums, I was aware of the problems over pricing before this; Amazon made a public announcement that certain publishers had, in effect, joined forces to fix prices for ebooks at way over any acceptable level. It had already been done in the US, where Kindle users in protest not only refused to buy Kindle books from the publishing cartel, they boycotted hard copy as well. Amazon passed on the information to the Kindle community that these publishers have suffered a 62% drop in their share of the market as a result. I have also boycotted the price-fixers, and contacted both the national Trading Standards office and the EU relevant commission office on price fixing, since this is illegal in both Britain and the European Union at large, and so have hundreds of Kindle owners. I have largely been reading free public domain works anyway, but I absolutely refuse to pay over £5 for an ebook. I cannot lend it to anyone else, unless I give them my Kindle; I cannot give it to anyone else, not even a charity shop, nor sell it on to recover some of my outlay. I don't give a stuff if these (hugely successful) publishing companies can't sell their outrageously overpriced hard copy books if Kindle undercuts them, their outlay on the ebook is so tiny they could make a massive profit on selling them at a couple of quid and probably would sell more to boot. Kindle sales in the long run benefit them, because there will be far fewer hard copies available at lower prices at car boots, charity shops, and second hand shops, and because instead of lending a good book to friends and family I will simply have to recommend it to them. And if we win a victory on this price-fixing (which happened when the publishers tried to stamp on supermarkets selling their hard copies cheaper), it will have a knock-on effect for all the book buying world, as they will have to justify what they are charging across the board. So to the barricades, comrades! And  to the publishing industry's robber barons. |
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Post by franklinmarsh on Nov 8, 2010 16:32:31 GMT
The publishers are killing themselves,aren't they? Like the record and film companies. "The Kids" just want it all off the net now and for free, and they'll get it. The comments in that article about people 'pirating' e-books had me reeling. Dumbo that I am I thought that books were one area where bootlegging couldn't possibly take place. It's bizarre.
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Post by killercrab on Nov 8, 2010 18:21:46 GMT
I've been considering getting a Kindle myself - I love the idea of reading something like Dracula on modern technology! I don't like reading books online at the computer( too uncomfortable) unless you have a laptop. The Kindle looks fun and I'd certainly oppose what these big publishers are forcing on the industry. Like it or not technology is the immediate future - a happy medium must be found.
KC
p.s. you can get Guy N Smith's books as e-books! How long before Eat Them Alive! is available?!
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Post by andydecker on Nov 8, 2010 19:12:30 GMT
The comments in that article about people 'pirating' e-books had me reeling. Dumbo that I am I thought that books were one area where bootlegging couldn't possibly take place. It's bizarre. You can steal most audio-novels and a lot of books somewhere from the net. Not to mention comics. You can download every new comic a day after release. I don´t have a kindle yet, but this is like the DVD or the CD, someday you have to or you will get left behind. There are already the first novels you get in electronic form only. thank you very much. But I have difficulty with the idea, that stuff for the Kindle is a book. It´s just another file. And as that they will never have the emotional attachment I have to a well-made book. Not to mention the little fact that this electronic brave new world will become a problem on the day when a)your PC or Kindle crashes or b) you can´t afford your phoneline any longer or c) your provider bankrupts or d) the power is down. Oh, and the title of this thread - it´s, well, it isn´t even approximatly true. |
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Post by Johnlprobert on Nov 8, 2010 20:24:01 GMT
How long before Eat Them Alive! is available?! I feel an equal mixtures of anticipation, excitement and embarrassment regarding the first two at the prospect  |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Nov 8, 2010 21:07:33 GMT
Happily I don't know what a kindle is
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Post by marksamuels on Nov 9, 2010 0:26:57 GMT
Happily I don't know what a kindle is Craig, my friend, they're KINDLING.  Let's pour petrol on them all ... Viva los libros, ahora y para siempre. In proper good old fashioned books we trust. Mark S. |
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Post by killercrab on Nov 9, 2010 2:17:02 GMT
But I have difficulty with the idea, that stuff for the Kindle is a book. It´s just another file. And as that they will never have the emotional attachment I have to a well-made book.
No argument here. I'm in the mood to de-clutter and like the idea of reading off a device without more bookcase space being filled. I see this not as an either or - but as a compliment. I don't really want a copy of Moby Dick but might fancy reading it - from a virtual library if you like.
KC
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Post by cw67q on Nov 9, 2010 8:24:51 GMT
I have kind of mixed feelings about this. I can't see why an ebook shouldn't be appreciably cheaper than a physical book and certainly than a hb. However I do worry that if ebooks are made dirt cheap for non-public domain material that it will hasten the end of real books. Possibly also increase the dominance of "best sellers" over all else (though this latter might not be the case).
I think it is arguable that while only the initial hb is in price that ebooks should have a premium added to their basic price that drops once the pb is released. Otherwise the hb is doomed. You cannot after all buy the cheaper pb in the first epriod of a book's release.
In short, my basic normal sympathy for the little person against big (or in this case perhaps often big-ish or medium-ish?) buisiness, comes up to some extent with my distaste for a tinge of me-itis. The modern world often displaying symptoms of expecting everything to be unreasonably cheap and instantly supplied despite the long-term consequences.
Just voicing my reservations - chris
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Post by franklinmarsh on Nov 9, 2010 8:34:04 GMT
[ Oh, and the title of this thread - it´s, well, it isn´t even approximatly true. Hi Andy - I was just getting emotional. What with the younger generation preferring to get their music from, and watch films on a computer, and the charity shop 'pulp everything over five years old and/or with non-decimal pricing' outlook, I see my life ebbing away before me. I've sacrificed most of my records for cds, and most of my videos for DVDs, and both of those formats are virtually obsolete. I'm getting too old for this rapid change, and if they're starting on books, well that's it. I'll board meself up in my hovel, surrounded by stacks of cds and DVDs and piles of tatty paperbacks and let the world go by. |
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Post by andydecker on Nov 9, 2010 10:54:19 GMT
Hi Andy - I was just getting emotional. What with the younger generation preferring to get their music from, and watch films on a computer, and the charity shop 'pulp everything over five years old and/or with non-decimal pricing' outlook, I see my life ebbing away before me. I've sacrificed most of my records for cds, and most of my videos for DVDs, and both of those formats are virtually obsolete. I'm getting too old for this rapid change, and if they're starting on books, well that's it. I'll board meself up in my hovel, surrounded by stacks of cds and DVDs and piles of tatty paperbacks and let the world go by. Frankly that is a good idea. I have to say I share your feelings. I see my collection and know it will end in the trash some day. I live with it for more than 30 years, and it has lost any worth as it is a reading collection, not a first edition never touched collection. And even for those I wouldn´t find a buyer. If I see that even movies havn´t any worth whatsoever any longer if you get a free DVD at the gas station for buying a full tank or included in your weekly tv-guide for the first time I shudder to think what will happen to the publishing industry now that they are joining the sharewaretrain to hell. At least movies were the holy grail and now they cost less than a pack of fags. What does that say about books? The progress in the visual entertainment industry has killed the reading habits and the attention span of whole generations. You just have to spend an hour in the forum of the Imdb. The number of people who can´t even understand a simple crappy movie-plot ís staggering. And this is only the begining. Of course a gadget like the kindle has a lot of advantages. As has my cell which can do more than the computer on the Apollo 11. Still it is a symbol of progress which I just hate, and to transform books into computer-files and hail it as the second coming? This is the point where I also say I am too old for this shit. And my DVD-Recorder and my PC have taught me that you can´t trust the technology. So I feel with you, believe me  |
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Post by Dr Strange on Nov 9, 2010 12:51:39 GMT
Simple fact is that most people are never going to be happy paying more for the "electronic" version of anything - they are always likely to think that it should cost less than the "real" object. This is probably true for all sorts of reasons, and some of them are likely to be very deep-seated - i.e. our brains may just be "hard-wired" to value old-fashioned "objects" of the sort we have been surrounded by throughout evolution more than we can possibly value the intangibles of modern electronic technologies. At least I hope so.
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Post by lemming13 on Nov 9, 2010 13:47:53 GMT
I DO have a Kindle, and it has already had the battery charge run down while I was halfway through the Saragossa Manuscript, but I do have real books as well, so that's all right. The thing about the Kindle and all ebook readers is, if I wanted to add 3,500 new books to my existing collection I'd have to make my kids sleep on piles of books to make room. But with the Kindle I can have that many in the space of one slim volume. Plus a huge library stored online which I can download from at any time. And I don't need a pc or phoneline, andy, mine has 3G and I can shop for and upload books to it at my local Starbucks, or any other wi-fi point for free. I do accept that it may undercut real books, but come on, you authors, how much do you get from your work now? After publishers and agents get involved, not a lot. The publishers justify their huge cut on the grounds that they have to create and sell the actual objects (paper, ink, costs of running the presses, binding, distribution, marketing). Fair enough. I resent being charged £6 - 10 for a paperback that was knocked out for about 40p in some third world sweatshop printing house, but damned if I'm paying that much for something that is, as has been said, just a file. The only costs on those to the publisher are paying the author (and believe me, a huge number of the ebooks they are putting out are in fact public domain - case in point, Penguin charging £6.99 for the ebook version of the collected M R James when all his stories are public domain, and the only living writer involved is S T Joshi), and someone to produce the electronic format version, which once created can be reproduced indefinitely without any additional cost. Most publishing houses are just offering really badly proofed, slipshod scans or unadapted copies of their original product; Girl With a Dragon Tattoo apparently was atrociously bad, yet they charged over £6 for it. Amazon and other ebook outlets charge a small fee for providing the shopfront, but the costs of providing an ebook are absolutely minimal. I buy a lot of my hard copy books when they show up in charity shops, on remainder in various outlets, even in Poundland. Why? Because I can't justify £6.99 for a paperback I may not even like when I've read it. I can justify £1 - 3, though. I do buy real books, because some things are worth it; graphic novels are crap on Kindle, and some books are an experience in themselves. But for just something to read and leave behind, ebooks are far more sense - as long as they are priced right. I'd buy a lot of ebooks at £3, but at £6 it's NO SALE. Dr Strange, it isn't because I expect an electronic version to be free; if you were told you could have your favourite book in paperback for £6, and could lend it to your friends when you wanted, or give it away, or sell it at a car boot when you were done, or you could have an ephemeral version of it you couldn't give to anyone else and could never sell off, however collectable it might become, which would you pick? The difference with electronic versions of films or music or games is, they can be copied to various formats and passed on. An ebook is impossible to pass on (the pirated ones are regular ones which have been scanned in or transcribed, and that was happening before ebooks even existed; I do know of people bragging of owning complete manga series scanned in by pirates and printed off at home by them, at a fraction of the cost of buying it from Japan). Ebooks aren't going to kill books off, regardless of media hysteria (and ask yourselves, newspapers whose sales are falling as more people read their news on the internet, don't they have an axe to grind there somewhere?). Think back to the past. TV was going to be the death of the cinema and radio. Wasn't though, was it? Home taping is killing music! Didn't, though, did it? Same old story, different boogeyman. What most endangers the publishing industry is the insensate greed of the publishers, who fail to realise that they play into the hands of pirates by their attempts to unlawfully fix prices at unjustifiable levels. And their idiot stampede to publish the flavour of the month which fills the shelves with unreadable celebrity twaddle and (currently) paranormal romance, which has stepped and taken over from gimmick 'historical detective' series. At least with ebook self-publishing I get a chance to see authors the publishing houses reject, and decide for myself if they are worth reading. And the authors don't get ripped off by vanity publishing houses (unless they're daft enough not to suss out how to put their stuff on sites like Amazon for free and get paid for each one downloaded). Kindle is a useful addition to my life, and I don't see why anybody would want to set fire to my little toy - but then I didn't see why anyone would want to burn paper books, either... |
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Post by Dr Strange on Nov 9, 2010 14:33:41 GMT
Lemming, I didn't suggest that you wanted the electronic version "for free", I just made the general point that most people (including me) would think the electronic version should cost less than the hard copy - which you would seem to agree with.
As for ebooks being "impossible" to copy, I doubt that very much - unless what you mean is it's not possible to do it legally. Most likely there just isn't any (or enough) profit to make it a worthwhile business venture for piraters to bother copying ebooks on a large scale - but if it can be downloaded and stored on a piece of hardware, then it can be read from that hardware, copied and distributed.
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to the publishing industry's robber barons.
