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Post by Knygathin on Jan 9, 2020 15:08:43 GMT
Leiber's alcoholism may have been, and probably was, a tragedy. BUT! He sure put his love for alcohol and social experience with it, to its best possible use in "Ill Met in Lankhmar"! Excellent entertainment! And with a big heart! BRAVO!
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Feb 3, 2020 19:32:32 GMT
I have to confess that I never thought about writing this way. If a writer's work has Christian or other roots. Especially in Fantasy. A religious context is difficult to find in the works of, say, Donaldson, Jordan or Wagner. I don't mean set-pieces, like the God who cursed Kane, or the creator in Jordan who created the Wheel of Time. But the underlying motives, if I understood you correctly. Or do you mean writers like C.S. Lewis with his Narnia? I did not think of it as an underlying conscious motive. Although it can be so in some writers, like C. S. Lewis perhaps. But opinions and religious/philosophical outlook, may of course shine through between the lines. Authors do best avoiding overt didactic motivations, because I am sure it will gravely distract from their fantastic artistic imagination. In Leiber's case I simply thought of it as part of his mentality, a subtle flair in attitude, not a conscious choice to be Nietzschian. He may not even have read Nietzsche, for all I know. That all seems reasonable. I liked a couple of Lewis' saga but the moment you see through the Christian basis it all falls into a very smug and at times unpleasant place. I particularly felt for Susan.
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Feb 3, 2020 23:25:12 GMT
That all seems reasonable. I liked a couple of Lewis' saga but the moment you see through the Christian basis it all falls into a very smug and at times unpleasant place. I particularly felt for Susan. I enjoyed the Narnia books when I was younger, but I can't go back to them now for this reason. I remember reading something by Neil Gaiman that dealt with how poorly Lewis treated Susan.
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Post by Knygathin on Feb 4, 2020 5:28:46 GMT
Did J. R. R. Tolkien also have some of this Christian didactics smearing his writings? I would like to think not. At least it is not something I remember having noticed, or been bothered about, in my early Tolkien readings. He does have a highly moral vision about what is good and clean and beautiful, but that is not quite the same thing as obsessive religious nagging.
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Feb 4, 2020 13:46:12 GMT
Did J. R. R. Tolkien also have some of this Christian didactics smearing his writings? I would like to think not. At least it is not something I remember having noticed, or been bothered about, in my early Tolkien readings. He does have a highly moral vision about what is good and clean and beautiful, but that is not quite the same thing as obsessive religious nagging. "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations," is what he had to say on that subject.
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Post by Dr Strange on Feb 4, 2020 15:43:23 GMT
Did J. R. R. Tolkien also have some of this Christian didactics smearing his writings? I would like to think not. At least it is not something I remember having noticed, or been bothered about, in my early Tolkien readings. He does have a highly moral vision about what is good and clean and beautiful, but that is not quite the same thing as obsessive religious nagging. In a 1953 letter to his friend Robert Murray (a Jesuit priest), Tolkien wrote: " The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion,” to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."
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Post by ropardoe on Feb 4, 2020 19:37:19 GMT
Did J. R. R. Tolkien also have some of this Christian didactics smearing his writings? I would like to think not. At least it is not something I remember having noticed, or been bothered about, in my early Tolkien readings. He does have a highly moral vision about what is good and clean and beautiful, but that is not quite the same thing as obsessive religious nagging. In a 1953 letter to his friend Robert Murray (a Jesuit priest), Tolkien wrote: " The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion,” to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." The theology of LotR becomes a lot clearer on reading some sections of the Silmarillion. Tolkien will probably be turning in his grave at this point, but I have to say I found it all a wee bit gnostic! (Which is all to the good, in my opinion.)
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Post by Knygathin on Feb 18, 2020 12:35:54 GMT
In a 1953 letter to his friend Robert Murray (a Jesuit priest), Tolkien wrote: " The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like “religion,” to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." I am a bit disappointed hearing that Tolkien said that, when he also said "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations,". It may perhaps partly be a case of adapting his words to the person he is talking too (a priest). My impression has been that Tolkien foremost wrote about Middle-Earth to create a mythological background for Great Britain, a strongly inspired vision of English (and north European) culture, morals, and fundamental energies and ethereal subtleties of Nature (hobbits, dwarfs, elves, dragons, ... etc.). Born a Catholic, the morals in his work can of course be seen as Christian values. I think the background (born Christian, or not) matters not so much or all importantly for a writer. What is important is the motivation behind a book (is it Art, or is a small-minded preaching the main motivation for writing?). In the case of C. S. Lewis, he adopted Christianity and was probably very anxious to prove its values both to himself and to others, and so his main motivation for writing fantasy was to preach, preach Christianity. I think that is why I have never been attracted to read C. S. Lewis. I view him as an inferior artist. Another similar figure is George MacDonald. I read his Phantastes, and while I partly enjoyed it, it has fundamentally at its base an eager Christian motivation, and is therefore unsatisfactory as a work of Art, creative fantasy, and supernatural fiction. Also I must say that Christianity is not really our true European heritage, it is a falsity that was forced and tricked upon us. It is a Semitic tool for controlling and holding down people. I was born into Catholicism, but have seen through Christianity. At heart I am more of a pagan, feel at home finding source guidance in Nature and science, which is our true European heritage and way of thinking. Any Christian preaching is much less obvious in Tolkien, and I don't think that was his motivation. When preaching (religious, philosophical, or political) is the main purpose driving a writer, creative imagination will not be at its fullest, and the writer will therefore be more likely to make inferior Art. I am convinced that ego more than heart often lies at the base of preaching. Or it can even be self-effacing. In any case, preaching is a distraction from consummate Art. A writer can have opinions (religious, philosophical, political) of course, as most people do, but is best advised to let them fall back into the unconscious while focusing on creativity and making Art. That way his opinions, or call it personality if you will, may still show through indirectly in the background, but will not hamper the artistic expression and imagination. Reading Fafhrd & Grey Mouser, not sure what Fritz Leiber was (aside from the Nietzschean tendency I see). He did some superficial Christian, and philosophical, preaching. Maybe, or not really a true pagan at heart? Talented wastrel perhaps?
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 13, 2020 23:01:12 GMT
I am not worried by Tolkien's religious basis really. It's all about good and evil, the possession of power and its implications. Lewis on the other hand I can't stick. He refered to 'A Voyage to Arcturus' as the most evil book written. Coincidentally it is one of the best books ever written and to no small extent because it is happily Gnostic.
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