sir henry rider haggard 1856-1925

[Craig Herbertson]

Jul 9, 2016 22:29:40 GMT cromagnonman said:

Jul 8, 2016 19:50:42 GMT daniel1976 said:

i'm afraid you misquoted me. i wrote that elswhere someone said that umslopogaas can be viewed as a black conan. i accept that this observation in itself is wrong but as for myself i could never say that umslopogaas is a black conan simply because umslopogaas first appeared in print in 1886 in haggard's "allan quatermain" which was about 40 years before conan.

rider haggard's influence also extends to edgar rice burroughs, and the solomon kane story "moon of skulls" also by howard, though the variation on haggard's "she"| in that story is much darker.



With respect, I fear you have misinterpreted my meaning. I was simply trying to qualify your quote that "Conan is a black Umslopogaas". My point being that, whatever else Conan may be, he is not black. The origin of that misapprehension is neither here nor there to me.

I'm more interested by your contention that Haggard influenced Burroughs. My own preference would be for a much stronger qualifier than that; something along the lines of Haggard being systematically plagiarized, pirated, stolen from, copied and blatantly ripped off by Burroughs. And nor was he alone in being targetted for this treatment. Burroughs was a literary vulture who never had an original idea in his life. Although I will concede that he was very adept at elaborating and extemporizing upon the inventiveness of others.
This in itself is not quite as condemnatory as it may sound.


Its worth making the point that Burroughs began publishing at the fag end of what is sometimes referred to as the Age of Storytellers. This was a golden period of literary innovation that extended between the publication of TREASURE ISLAND in 1883 and the outbreak of the First World War. It was from this time that posterity took possession of everything from Peter Pan to Fu Manchu, the Psammead to Sexton Blake, taking in such diverse icons as Dracula, Raffles, Jekyll & Hyde and Billy Bunter along the way, to name but a few. Such was the richness of the literary workings of this period that much of the popular culture of our own time is built largely on them. Would there be a Batman without the Scarlet Pimpernel for example? Or a C.S.I without Sherlock Holmes?


Inevitably there was a fair degree of literary blacksmithing at this time with writers finding their imaginations sparked by striking upon the anvil of a competitor's work. Kipling, for instance, cheerfully admitted that THE JUNGLE BOOKS would never have been written had he not read Haggard's NADA THE LILY. Similarly we may conclude that Jack London's THE SEA-WOLF would not have appeared without the precedent of Kipling's own CAPTAINS COURAGEOUS: Haggard's ALLAN AND THE ICE GODS without London's BEFORE ADAM: London's THE STAR ROVER without Kipling's "The Finest Story in the World". The examples are endless.


The thing is, all of the popular storytellers of this period appear to have cheerfully accepted this tendency as the validation of a good idea. Jack London, for instance, was blithely dismissive when accused of plagiarism. Similarly Kipling, in his autobiography SOMETHING OF MYSELF, cautioned fellow writers to be tolerant of their copiers. Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery after all. He singled out the author of TARZAN OF THE APES (unable to quite bring himself to actually name him) as the "genius of the genii" when it came to his own batallion of flatterers.


To my mind what sets Burroughs apart is the sheer scale and scope of his literary plunderings. In this he has much in common with the much derided Lin Carter in that he appeared to flatter just about everyone. It is therefore all the more regrettable that Burroughs's heirs have not adopted the same sort of tolerance and leniency that earlier writers afforded to him. In the 1950s, for example, Marco Garon's entire Azan the Ape Man series was withdrawn and pulped at the insistence of the Burroughs estate for infringement of copyright. And to this day it remains equally draconian in the protection of its properties. The irony appears to be completely lost on them that - had he wished - Kipling would have been equally within his rights to demand the destruction of TARZAN OF THE APES for the same reason. Edwin Arnold - author of LT GULLIVAR JONES: HIS VACATION -  had even more grounds to object to the entire Barsoom series. Conan Doyle had every reason to insist upon the withdrawal of THE LAND THAT TIME FORGOT. While, to get back to the original point, Haggard's heirs would have had a watertight case for arguing that Tarzan's lost civilisation infested Africa constituted intellectual theft on a massive scale.


Sadly we live in less forgiving times. Dare one make the point that a certain colossus of modern children's fiction is equally guilty of such rank hypocrisy?              

Not sure from this quote who said Burroughs was the great plagiarist and never had an original idea. Afraid I can't let that pass. If you'd said his plots were almost all exactly the same and ridden with cliches, stereotypes and unbelievable coincidences I'd agree but he did come up with ideas. The following list was compiled by Bill Hillman and the full one can be seen here www.erbzine.com/mag4/0459.html

Atmosphere Factory

International air travel moves both freight and passengers.

Full-Scale Air Battles between powerful air fleets took place on Barsoom long before the importance of airpower in war was accepted on Earth.

Airship hangars & landing pads on roofs

Eighth Ray or Antigravity Ray is the ray of propulsion. It repels aircraft from gravity and is used in buoyancy tanks. It allows all Barsoomian aircraft to hover anywhere. It is an inherent property of all light.

Ninth Ray combines with the ether to create a breathable atmosphere on Barsoom.

Sun Ray Tank: A tank in which light is trapped for later use (as opposed to converting sunlight to energy). (WM)

Airships range in size from single seaters to giant 10,000-man craft.

Equibilibrimotors or flying belts are one-man flying machines,

One-man surfboard-like fliers are equipped with a wind-screen and travel at speeds up to1000 mph.

Public flier taxis

Ground fliers are of two different designs. In the north polar region the tires of this wheeled motor vehicle are actually rubber-like gas bags filled with the eighth Barsoomian ray. The flier is propelled along the ground by a motor-driven propeller. Throughout most of the rest of Barsoom the ground flier is just a modified aircraft designed for use on, or a short distance above the ground.

Military aircraft patrol the skies

Space craft guided by artificial brains similar to today's computers were invented by Fal Siva, a scientist in Zodanga.

Spacecraft capable of reaching the moon

Astral Projection: John Carter eventually masters the ability to project himself between Mars and Earth at will. GMFW

Controlling Destination Compass is a directional compass used for navigation in aircraft (this device was called a gyro-compass in "Giant of Mars"). It is actually a computer-driven automatic pilot perfected by Carthoris. The pilot sets the desired latitude and longitude and the device then navigates to the location, shuts down the propulsion, and lowers the craft to land. A warning bell is often incorporated to awaken the sleeping pilot.

Altitude Ranging is another feature of the Controlling Destination Compass which was designed to prevent collisions.

Sonar or Radar devices are used by Fliers to warn of approaching obstacles. The ship is brought to a halt until pilot takes control.

Air and Ground Traffic Control: All traffic in Okar is controlled by intricate flight control systems similar to our modern-day air traffic control networks.

Airship weaponry includes rapid fire guns and the larger radium cannons which fire explosive radium projectiles. A variety of bombs are also used.

Radium rifles are an extremely deadly weapon with a range of 300 miles. They have long metal barrel composed of a specially tempered alloy of aluminum and steel.

Radium Pistols are a firearms with a shorter range than the radium rifle.

Atom Gun is a somewhat different kind of pistol or rifle described in "Giant of Mars."

Disintegrating Ray.

Ghastly blue protective paint was later developed by Phor Tak to negate the effects of the disintegrating ray.

Phor Tak's Flying Death is a guided missile.

Carborundum Aluminum was a lightweight, impenetrable material used in the construction of Martian fighting ships.

Invisibilty paint

Invisibility Sand is a Sasoomian submicroscopic, magnetic sand composed of prismatic crystals. It has the same characteristics as Invisibility Paint. Its many uses include concealing aircraft and camouflaging homes.

Magnetic tower of Kadabra - the Great Power or Guardian of the North - is a gigantic electromagnet built over the north magnetic pole in Okar. It has the power to desroy approaching air fleets. It is controlled by the technician Solan.

Magnetic Elevator: A transport device that uses very powerful electromagnets for propulsion.(GM)

Carrion Caves are a series of 27 caverns connecting the hothouse cities of the North Pole with the outside world, beneath the ice cliffs. Here the yellow men of Okar bring their dead so that the stench will discourage any invasion of their territory.

Pumping Stations of the subterranean Omean Sea: The only entrance to the Omean Sea is through a crater opening in a flat-topped black mountain rising from the south polar ice cap. To keep it from filling above a certain level, the Black Pirates have four great pumping stations that force the oversupply back into the reservoirs from which the red men draw the water which irrigates their farm lands.

Submarines are used in the Omean Sea.

Advanced Mental Powers were developed by Lotharians who create imaginary bowmen for defence.

Advanced Hypnotic Powers were developed by Kaldanes who control others through mind control.


Underground transport links the Twin Cities of Helium which are 75 miles apart

Pneumatic tube transport systems are part of the rapid transit system between the Twin Cities. Passengers are propelled through the 75-mile tubes in eight-foot-long bullet-shaped cars.

Pits & passageways under cities

Ramps are much more common than stairs over most of Barsoom.

Home Security is achieved by using hydraulics to lift houses up at night for safety.

Door Locking Mechanisms are controlled by a series of light rays of varying intensity for specific lengths of time.

Surveillance cameras are used in Zodanga's Royal Palace

Directional lighting: In Barsoomian street lighting, the light leaves the lamp, goes around in a circle, illuminates everything in its path and then returns to the lamp. SM

Torches of Horz are cylindrical portable lighting devices with a central core which glows when exposed to air. The secret technique of producing this central core has been lost for centuries.

Forandus is the hardest and lightest metal on Barsoom. It is commonly used in the making of wall panels.

Radium Light Bulbs are the principal means of artificial lighting on Mars. They are hemispherical glass bowls, filled with radium powder, which gives a clear but glareless light almost indefinitely. The bulb is never extinguished, but is fitted with an opaque cover when not in use.

Holographic Telescopes

Telescopic Cameras are capable of taking pictures of Earth objects as small as a blade of grass. PM11

Glass-Domes are used to cover whole cities in northern polar regions. Here, solar energy is trapped and stored in huge reservoirs.

Solar Energy used in northern cities for heating and a source of energy.

Concentrated energy food tablets

Food Automats prepare and serve food entirely by a mechanical apparatus. The diner selects the food to be served by pressing tiny buttons.

Healing powders and ointments of remarkable powers can heal wounds of any severity.

ID Rings WM

ID Machines are used in northern nation of Okar to measure, weigh and photograph people. Copies of this information are reproduced instantly in offices all over the region.

Dance of Barsoom One-Stringed Instrument is an exotic instrument made of skeel (a Barsoomian hardwood) and shaped to fit the left forearm of the dancers. Characters are inscribed upon it denoting the pitch and length of its tone. There is also a ring wound with gut which is worn between the first and second joints of the index finger of the right hand and which, when passed over the string, elicits the single tone required of the dancer.

Invisibility Tablets are used by the invisible warriors of Invak and Onvak in the Forest of Lost Men. It renders them invisible except under special artificial lighting in their cities. A tablet takes effect after an hour and lasts for one day.

Radio Technology: There is a great variety of radio-related equipment from large to miniature with various modes of transmission & reception, secret frequencies, transmission codes, headsets, etc.

Nerve Index Machines control the bodies of people. This machine was invented by scientist Myr-lo for the Jeddak of Kamtol who holds all his subjects and slaves in absolute control. The machine is keyed to their nervous systems via shortwaves and enables him to kill all escapees or rebellious subjects with the simple pushing of a button.

Photostatic copiers which reproduce images in an instant are used in the Temple of Knowledge.

Computer Fax and Teletype Machines record and transmit data.

Gridley Wave is a type of radio wave discovered by Jason Gridley of Tarzana, California, and is also used by Barsoomian scientists. Ulysses Paxton transmitted the story of Tan Hadron of Hastor to Burroughs via this medium.

Sophisticated Chronometers

Longitudinal Positions (Central Meridian) are reckoned from the ancient city of Exum.

Through Ras Thavas of Toonol, the Mastermind of Mars, ERB presented a long string of innovations long before they appeared on Earth:

Transplanting of Organs through sophisticated surgical techniques
Brain Transfer
Restoring of Severed Limbs
Iron Lungs
Artificial Hearts
Multi-Focal Lenses in eye glasses
Sophisticated Hearing Aids
Intricate Brain Surgery
Instruments to study thought waves of inhabitants of distant planets
Freezing and Reviving of Bodies, i.e. suspended animation,
Homads - synthetic men
Malagors - a recreation of extinct huge flying birds on which the Homads rode
Television - invented by Ras Thavas

[cromagnonman]

Hence my caveat about him being "very adept at elaborating and extemporizing upon the inventiveness of others". He clearly had a talent for taking someone else's broad canvas and filling it with idiosyncratic and often fascinating detail. That is not an insignificant or dismissable skill and I don't dispute it.

I might dispute Hillman's generosity in the variety and scale of innovations he credits Burroughs with. An antigravity ray? By his own definition isn't that just Cavorite, effectively? A disintegrating ray? HG's Martian heat ray surely?
But.....submarines!?!?
Ramps??
Is he serious?
I daresay one could find any number of precedents for many of the conceits on Hillman's list in late 19th century fiction if one looked hard enough. But - and I repeat - that is not to deny that ERB was a clever inventor of literary tropes.


My point was that he never originated any of the broad artistic themes for which he is remembered. All of the enduring conceits he cribbed from someone else, be it men transported to Mars, preserved prehistoric habitats, man cubs raised by animals, or whatever. He left behind nothing unique to himself which has proved to be equally influential or imitable in the way that Wells and Haggard did.
Although the actions of his estate over the intervening years appear to indicate their determination to prove the opposite. An act of often spiteful and venal denial.


It puts me in mind of the great John Barry - beyond question one of the greatest composers this country has ever produced. Despite all of his very real and significant accomplishments it came to seem as if he really wanted nothing more than to be remembered and credited as the composer of the James Bond theme. Wanted it so much that he practically indoctrinated himself into believing it to be true. Sadly for him the fact was that he simply hadn't written those famous notes. Monty Norman had. And that's what posterity will always recognise, however much his apologists wish otherwise.  

[Craig Herbertson]

Jul 13, 2016 11:58:08 GMT cromagnonman said:

Hence my caveat about him being "very adept at elaborating and extemporizing upon the inventiveness of others". He clearly had a talent for taking someone else's broad canvas and filling it with idiosyncratic and often fascinating detail. That is not an insignificant or dismissable skill and I don't dispute it.

I might dispute Hillman's generosity in the variety and scale of innovations he credits Burroughs with. An antigravity ray? By his own definition isn't that just Cavorite, effectively? A disintegrating ray? HG's Martian heat ray surely?
But.....submarines!?!?
Ramps??
Is he serious?
I daresay one could find any number of precedents for many of the conceits on Hillman's list in late 19th century fiction if one looked hard enough. But - and I repeat - that is not to deny that ERB was a clever inventor of literary tropes.


My point was that he never originated any of the broad artistic themes for which he is remembered. All of the enduring conceits he cribbed from someone else, be it men transported to Mars, preserved prehistoric habitats, man cubs raised by animals, or whatever. He left behind nothing unique to himself which has proved to be equally influential or imitable in the way that Wells and Haggard did.
Although the actions of his estate over the intervening years appear to indicate their determination to prove the opposite. An act of often spiteful and venal denial.


It puts me in mind of the great John Barry - beyond question one of the greatest composers this country has ever produced. Despite all of his very real and significant accomplishments it came to seem as if he really wanted nothing more than to be remembered and credited as the composer of the James Bond theme. Wanted it so much that he practically indoctrinated himself into believing it to be true. Sadly for him the fact was that he simply hadn't written those famous notes. Monty Norman had. And that's what posterity will always recognise, however much his apologists wish otherwise.  

Aren't you falling into the nihil novi argument though. Lucian 79 AD is credited with writing the first science fiction novel where humans observe a war between aliens on the Moon and on the Sun. This 'broad theme' precedes Well's by a substantial amount of years. Immortality in Haggard? That's been around even longer.

I'd agree re Burrough's Estate with the caveat that it's their job to bum up their illustrious ancestor.

Burrough's never claimed to be even clever - just good at telling a tale. From my own extensive reading of Burroughs I am pretty sure he read 'The Jungle Book' and 'Lieut. Gullivar Jones: His Vacation'. the latter has too many vaguely familiar elements and it may well have been the book which inspired Burroughs to think he could do just as well if not better. However, no one had written a story about a boy being brought up by apes and there is very little to compare between Mowgli and Tarzan.

Burroughs broad theme regardless of the setting was invariably boy meets girl falls in love and, after a series of adventures, marries. It's not exactly rocket science. Still, I'd rank Burroughs as one of the truly great story tellers. At his best you are simply drawn into a preposterous world and you are its hero. At his worst the world is preposterous and you can't get out fast enough. I am a great admirer of Wells and Haggard, both brilliant, inventive and groundbreaking but despite their enduring qualities - and there are many - Burroughs told a better tale.

[cromagnonman]

And Homer anticipates Howard by even longer but I'd still credit the latter as the true father of sword and sorcery.

Its perfectly reasonable to accept that crude, often fantastical, prototypes for all manner of genre fiction are to be found in biblical texts, medieval sagas and the secular literature of antiquity. There are only so many original ideas after all, and it would be the height of arrogance to assume that our own times have a monopoloy on discovering them. But surely its equally reasonable to presume that the popular storytellers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were creating and innovating within their own contemporary commercial bubble. Lucian may anticipate Wells but surely no one would seriously suggest that Wells was inspired by anything other than his intellectual and conceptual rivalry with Griffith. Surely we must subscribe to the idea of something which constitutes the bedrock of popular fiction.

My own preference - as stated previously - is the publication of TREASURE ISLAND. Not only does it approximate to the upswell in general literacy but also to the subsequent mushrooming of story papers in which the great innovators like Conan Doyle and Wells were to flourish. Taken in this context Burroughs was regurgitating greedily from what were recently imbibed brews. But, as I also said earlier, he wasn't alone in doing that and I say that as someone who remains quite fond of the Caprona and Pellucidar tales. Burroughs can only be commended and admired for formulating treatments of extant themes which have proved to be more perseverant and beloved than those of anyone else. He possessed great storytelling gifts but I maintain that he wasn't an innovator.

As for Mowgli not inspiring Tarzan. All I can say is that Kipling certainly didn't see it that way.

And with regards to which was the better storyteller; that can only ever be a case of apples and oranges. My own preference happens to be for Haggard's less formulaic and mechanical approach.

[Craig Herbertson]

Jul 13, 2016 18:54:42 GMT cromagnonman said:

And Homer anticipates Howard by even longer but I'd still credit the latter as the true father of sword and sorcery.

Its perfectly reasonable to accept that crude, often fantastical, prototypes for all manner of genre fiction are to be found in biblical texts, medieval sagas and the secular literature of antiquity. There are only so many original ideas after all, and it would be the height of arrogance to assume that our own times have a monopoloy on discovering them. But surely its equally reasonable to presume that the popular storytellers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were creating and innovating within their own contemporary commercial bubble. Lucian may anticipate Wells but surely no one would seriously suggest that Wells was inspired by anything other than his intellectual and conceptual rivalry with Griffith. Surely we must subscribe to the idea of something which constitutes the bedrock of popular fiction.

My own preference - as stated previously - is the publication of TREASURE ISLAND. Not only does it approximate to the upswell in general literacy but also to the subsequent mushrooming of story papers in which the great innovators like Conan Doyle and Wells were to flourish. Taken in this context Burroughs was regurgitating greedily from what were recently imbibed brews. But, as I also said earlier, he wasn't alone in doing that and I say that as someone who remains quite fond of the Caprona and Pellucidar tales. Burroughs can only be commended and admired for formulating treatments of extant themes which have proved to be more perseverant and beloved than those of anyone else. He possessed great storytelling gifts but I maintain that he wasn't an innovator.

As for Mowgli not inspiring Tarzan. All I can say is that Kipling certainly didn't see it that way.

And with regards to which was the better storyteller; that can only ever be a case of apples and oranges. My own preference happens to be for Haggard's less formulaic and mechanical approach.

Well, I can't really argue about your first point as I absolutely agree with it. Easy to start pointing at early myths and claim they are the winners in some first past the post scheme but it's redundant - or perhaps a bit like claiming modern Masonry was directly linked to Egypt. Then again, although Treasure Island is a very good shout couldn't you apply the same kind of argument: Was Stevenson the inspiration for every fantastical genre? The lines seem blurred to me and I would rather look at it as a continuous tapestry with seams weaving off in various directions.

Burroughs always denied the Mowgli factor and I think Kipling was snobbishly reacting more to Burroughs being not of the literati than to genuine plagiarism.

In any case as I am a big fan of Wells, Haggard, Burroughs and Kipling I'll desist.

I did a review of five fantasy authors in an attempt to unravel why I liked some more than others here:

www.heavenmakers.com/?p=808

Unforgivably, I missed out Haggard but this thread has inspired me to look again at his work. I read everything by Wells but not Haggard so I'll need to redress that. I was kind of kidding about Burroughs being 'better'.

[cromagnonman]

It was never my intention to suggest that Stevenson in particular, or TREASURE ISLAND specifically, are the wellsprings for all subsequent fantastical literature. Apologies if I appeared to foster that impression. TREASURE ISLAND is of seminal importance of course, both in its own right and in the galvanising effect it had upon Haggard to write KING SOLOMON'S MINES. But its importance in this context arrives with its date of publication; coming so soon after the death of George Eliot which, to my mind at least, has always served to bring down the curtain - symbolically speaking - on the Victorian conveyor belt of pointedly literate, socially sensitive, politicised novels and signal the advent of a new brand of lighter, more egalitarian, popular escapist fiction instead.

Its an entirely arbitrary demarcation line I grant you, but I believe it is important to recognise some sort of bedrock to put discussion of subsequent developments in genre fiction into perspective.

Although one might apportion Kipling's attitude to a variety of causes I would strenuously dispute snobbery being one of them.
For a start Kipling never considered himself part of the literati so would scarcely have held that distinction against anyone else. In point of fact he did his utmost to distance himself - both geographically and philosophically - from the literary set. Haggard and Conan Doyle were quite the exceptions in being included amongst his circle of friends: (read Morton Cohen's marvellous collection of their correspondence RUDYARD KIPLING TO RIDER HAGGARD: THE RECORD OF A FRIENDSHIP and what strikes you is how little literature features in their conversations). Kipling was well known for preferring the company of ordinary soldiers, engineers, natives and country people than the well-to-do or intellectuals, although he moved equally comfortably in both social spheres. And he genuinely liked cheap genre fiction and preferred visiting the music hall to the theatre. He wasn't a snob at all and so I do think his belief in intellectual theft on Burroughs's part was a genuine one. Albeit one he was content to tolerate in the experimental spirit of the times.  

[valdemar]

One tiny point here - for all his talk of letters after his name, isn't it a bit odd that 'daniel 1976' writes the name of the creator of Tarzan with a lower case 'b', and refers to himself with a lower case 'i'. Petty on my part, yes, but I am one of those people who will not eat in any restaurant that displays a menu with spelling and grammatical errors present...

[Craig Herbertson]

Jul 11, 2016 8:28:16 GMT ohthehorror said:

Jul 10, 2016 22:55:27 GMT Dr Terror said:

Will it be illustrated?

I'd certainly promise to do my best.

Somehow I missed the bit about Barbarella and chain mail bikinis. Unforgivable. Let me know how that's going and send pics as soon as available.