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Post by Knygathin on Jun 29, 2012 19:20:27 GMT
My last post was buried right after I wrote it, and maybe slipped by unnoticed to some. It has only been viewed twice. So I lift this thread back up.
The Complete Short Stories of L. P. Hartley is a book that has never been mentioned on the Vault before. Others looking for Hartley's ghost stories may see it as an opportunity, because copies are not very difficult to find, and not so expensive either. And it has some nice non-weird stories too, like "The Price of the Absolute" about the pleasure of Art.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Jun 29, 2012 20:12:00 GMT
You seem to have changed your mind about Hartley in record time!
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Post by Knygathin on Jun 30, 2012 0:23:21 GMT
You seem to have changed your mind about Hartley in record time! You should try him, if you not have already done so. Yes, I approached with a light heart, without expectations, and became enwrapped. I was fiddling about with "The Price of the Absolute" and to my delight discovered that Hartley describes the surface of an art object (a vase) with appreciation reminiscient of C. A. Smith or Jack Vance. Well, a comparison to those two is perhaps far-fetched, but still . . . something is similar in perspective and taste. Another reason for liking is romantic. I long for the past. The Victorian may not be ideal, but still, better than now with everything collapsing in materialism. (Hartley must have read Walter de la Mare's The Return. I noted a close similarity of phrase.) |
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 2, 2012 11:30:26 GMT
" . . . It just doubles the man up, you see, directly it catches him - backwards, so as to break the spine. The top of the head fits in just below the heels. . . ."How could such a nice-looking man write something like that!?  ;D
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Post by Dr Strange on Jul 2, 2012 14:18:33 GMT
It'll be Birkin next, and then before you know it you'll be into Pierce Nace and Guy N Smith.
This is known as 'the gateway (to Hell) hypothesis'.
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 2, 2012 20:31:48 GMT
It'll be Birkin next, and then before you know it you'll be into Pierce Nace and Guy N Smith. This is known as 'the gateway (to Hell) hypothesis'. That Birkin has been crawling about like a worm in the back of my brain. I don't want him! Never heard of the other two. But your post oozes, as if with some profound deadly insight!  |
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Post by pulphack on Jul 3, 2012 6:37:37 GMT
It's a slippery slope, covered with oozing primordial slime...
But anyway, Hartley is a wonderful writer. Although it's not horror and so maybe not entirely relevant to this particular thread, The Go-Between is one of the most evocative books about adolescence and the relationship between our percepions of now and the past that I've ever read. Mind you, you don't get much of that sort of thing in Sexton Blake.
On another thread you mentioned that you were after 'literature' and a lot of the things on here are not (I'm simplifying to save typing here, mind): to be honest, one man's lit is another's trash, and if it fulfils its function then it works. There's a lot of stuff at either end of the spectrum here, and I've gathered that many on here, like myself, read different things for different ends.
Just try any of it. If you don't get on with it you can always close the book.
Except Birkin - for many, many reasons that's not easy to do...
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 3, 2012 10:25:15 GMT
. . . Hartley is a wonderful writer. Although it's not horror and so maybe not entirely relevant to this particular thread, The Go-Between is one of the most evocative books about adolescence and the relationship between our percepions of now and the past that I've ever read. . . . I read the blurb for The Go-Between, that's it's about a boy who is used egoistically by two adults as mediator for their romantics. It sounded sad, and did not stimulate me to buy the book. I get upset when a person is taken advantage of and impinged to take other persons's interests before his own. It's a manipulation that may be physical, but also psychologically subtle and un-recongizable on the outside. Emotionally egoistic arrogant adults get me in a rage. I am badly upset by mistreatment of children and animals. On another thread you mentioned that you were after 'literature' and a lot of the things on here are not (I'm simplifying to save typing here, mind): to be honest, one man's lit is another's trash, and if it fulfils its function then it works. There's a lot of stuff at either end of the spectrum here, and I've gathered that many on here, like myself, read different things for different ends. Just try any of it. If you don't get on with it you can always close the book. Many would probably think of, for example, Le Fanu, M.R. James, and Hartley, as garbage, simply because their own minds are not sensitive enough, and because they are unable to transfer into the past. That is sad. |
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Post by pulphack on Jul 3, 2012 13:04:00 GMT
Well, that is true about The Go-Between as far as it goes, but it's not really the whole story.* Even given what you say about how you feel, I would recommend giving it a try as while the adults do take advantge of the boy, there is a whole other layer to the story about how he realises this in later life and although looks back on this aspect of it with bitterness, this is intertwined with a nostalgia for those days and an acceptance that being young and innocent meant that he still had a positive experience. That dichotomy, for me,was a big part of growing up and then looking back. At least, that's what I took from it. Mind you, different people get different things from a text depending on the experiences they bring to it, I guess.
*missed out a bit typing - I think the're selling it short here by only blurbing one aspect of it and so maybe misleading readers. Hang on - that is blurb writers game!
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Post by andydecker on Jul 3, 2012 13:34:10 GMT
Many would probably think of, for example, Le Fanu, M.R. James, and Hartley, as garbage, simply because their own minds are not sensitive enough, and because they are unable to transfer into the past. That is sad. Interesting question. But isn´t that a big problem with most of the older horror literature? Just take Stoker´s Dracula with its reliance of christian symbols. The plot of the last third and its climax is largely driven by the importance that Mina Harker is "tainted" in the eyes of the Lord after being attacked by the vampire. Back at the time of writing this was something I guess many readers could understand and sympathize with. (I don´t know how big its original audiance was on the symbolism of the tale; today I guess the first interpretation would be that Mina is raped by the Foreigner which - at the time - would be an even more horrible idea in itself. Insofar Dracula is kind of a fairy tale as all ends well.). But today in our postmodern culture this is hard to understand if your are not into religion. Which of course is why so many or most modern vampire tales have taken this essential bit out of the concept. As in the cross or holy water is just a superstition and worthless as a shield. Of course this example may be wrong, the tales of Le Fanu or Machen have more universal concepts and ideas why the past is haunting the present than the vampire tale. Which of course is rather limited. Still, the question remains: is this lack of sensitivity not unavoidable as society changes? |
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Jul 3, 2012 17:05:56 GMT
Many would probably think of, for example, Le Fanu, M.R. James, and Hartley, as garbage, simply because their own minds are not sensitive enough, and because they are unable to transfer into the past. That is sad. Interesting question. But isn´t that a big problem with most of the older horror literature? Just take Stoker´s Dracula with its reliance of christian symbols. The plot of the last third and its climax is largely driven by the importance that Mina Harker is "tainted" in the eyes of the Lord after being attacked by the vampire. Back at the time of writing this was something I guess many readers could understand and sympathize with. (I don´t know how big its original audiance was on the symbolism of the tale; today I guess the first interpretation would be that Mina is raped by the Foreigner which - at the time - would be an even more horrible idea in itself. Insofar Dracula is kind of a fairy tale as all ends well.). But today in our postmodern culture this is hard to understand if your are not into religion. Which of course is why so many or most modern vampire tales have taken this essential bit out of the concept. As in the cross or holy water is just a superstition and worthless as a shield. Of course this example may be wrong, the tales of Le Fanu or Machen have more universal concepts and ideas why the past is haunting the present than the vampire tale. Which of course is rather limited. Still, the question remains: is this lack of sensitivity not unavoidable as society changes? Fascinating questions. Since you brought up Le Fanu: From what I've read, he intended the lesbian overtones of "Carmilla" to be a source of visceral horror, whereas the contemporary reader may have--well, let's say a different visceral reaction. Interestingly, the story works well both ways (there's also probably some fear of the foreigner mixed in there, not surprisingly given Le Fanu's own social context ). |
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 4, 2012 6:16:28 GMT
. . . Still, the question remains: is this lack of sensitivity not unavoidable as society changes? I agree. The people of the past had their senses conditioned to that time and culture, so it was easier and natural for them to see from the prevalent perspective. And as our society has become more and more secularized and materialistic, Christian symbols have lost much of their effect, and the subtlety of spirituality will also tend to pass by unnoticed. As for spirituality, I wonder if people were so much more sensitive to this in the past, than they are now. They were more religious and superstitious, but that is not the same thing. Their lives were still mainly trudging along in materialistic chores. The pace, or bombardment with impressions, was slower, which may have given more room for inner reflection. At the same time, from our end, it requires an extra sensitivity and imagination to transcend the mind from the present and travel into another time and culture. It also requires extra sensitivity to appreciate literature that is more subtly psychological and has ambiguity, than that which is straightforward materialistic horror. |
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 4, 2012 6:32:48 GMT
. . . Even given what you say about how you feel, I would recommend giving it a try . . . That is worth consideration. Meanwhile . . . as I am a terribly slow reader, and each book is a big project . . . I may watch the movie. ;D |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Jul 4, 2012 6:49:26 GMT
Well, that is true about The Go-Between as far as it goes, but it's not really the whole story.* Even given what you say about how you feel, I would recommend giving it a try as while the adults do take advantge of the boy, there is a whole other layer to the story about how he realises this in later life and although looks back on this aspect of it with bitterness, this is intertwined with a nostalgia for those days and an acceptance that being young and innocent meant that he still had a positive experience. That dichotomy, for me,was a big part of growing up and then looking back. At least, that's what I took from it. Mind you, different people get different things from a text depending on the experiences they bring to it, I guess. *missed out a bit typing - I think the're selling it short here by only blurbing one aspect of it and so maybe misleading readers. Hang on - that is blurb writers game! I'm with you on that. |
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Post by Knygathin on Jul 5, 2012 8:55:20 GMT
I have just seen The Go-Between with Alan Bates. It is very well-made. A bit dry, but still rich.
A film can't be compared with reading a book of course, and I shan't form presumptuous ideas from it. I am sure Hartley's writing has rich inner qualities not transfered to the film.
Interesting details of dialogue and structure. The boy's collected composed mind, and use of astrology and black magic, is a premonition of the future adult author's abilities.
The story was ultimately sad, and made me as upset as I had feared it would. The spoiled adults used and manipulated the boy's naivity and goodness. Being reduced to "Mercury" energy, the messenger. Still, that is perhaps partly the destiny and function in childhood. And adults - well, they are themselves conditioned and often damaged from childhood, and can't really be fully counted on and depended on - they do the best they can, from what they've got. Isolated within their emotional shells. It's more sad than infuriating.
Alan Bates is one of my favorites. I am glad his role was fairly sympathetic, after all.
What a great actor Bates is! Here so very different from his character in Zorba. Completely changes appearance, from refined but stilted upper-class to tumbling and rumbling labourer. Brilliant.
The nature scenes were beautiful, but, well . . . still too hemmed in, and stifled, by strict geometric gardening and large scale farming. I do prefer the more untamed wilderness of a Blackwood, and the old bucolic, with small unintrusive signs of human activity.
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;D
