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Post by helrunar on Sept 25, 2021 15:07:15 GMT
Dr Strange, what's the scoop on the Kronos book? I'd be interested in that if it was good. I just got hold of the HD edition of the film--it's a favorite of mine.
Oh, looking at what you wrote again, I see you found it lacking--so I doubt there's any more to say.
cheers, Hel.
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Post by Dr Strange on Sept 25, 2021 15:18:29 GMT
I think the main problem I had with Kronos was the way it was actually written - different chapters told in first-person from different characters' POVs, which I found some combination of annoying/confusing/repetitive/unnecessary. Others might be fine with it. As far as I can remember it sticks pretty close to the film, and has a similar sort of "jokey" style (which probably annoyed me too).
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Post by andydecker on Sept 25, 2021 16:52:35 GMT
I think I've only read two of his books - the 2011 Hammer Kronos novelization and a Sherlock Holmes pastiche, The Breath of God (also 2011) - I didn't get on great with either of them, and have more-or-less avoided him since.  I avoided both of those. Not because of the writer, but I can't stand Kronos the movie. For me it is just a glorified TV movie, too tame, indeed too jokey. Maybe too self-aware. The Van Helsing of its time, only without CGI. So I skipped the novel. Also I have no use for those Sherlock Holmes against the gods stuff. Now and then I really like Holmes pastiches, even Holmes against the supernatural, although the concept undermines the core of the character. But quite a few are fun. But all of the Titan series of novels were conceptually so comic-booky. Too League of Gentlemen. Holmes and Allan Quatermain, and Carnacki, against zombies and Cthulhu. I don't say these novels are bad, but I have zero interest in this direction. |
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Post by Dr Strange on Sept 25, 2021 17:35:35 GMT
Also I have no use for those Sherlock Holmes against the gods stuff. Now and then I really like Holmes pastiches, even Holmes against the supernatural, although the concept undermines the core of the character. The problem I had with The Breath of God was {Spoiler}he went with a Scooby Doo ending. I was enjoying it up to then - but the way he tried to explain away the apparently supernatural aspects of the story just seemed lazy, and made little sense in terms of the underlying plot. Carnacki, John Silence, Julian Karswell, and Aleister Crowley are all involved in (maybe that should be "shoe-horned into") the plot; the Scooby Doo ending was a massive anti-climax that made little sense to me. To me, the conclusion seemed less plausible than having Holmes accepting the existence of the supernatural - to avoid messing with the core of the Holmes character, he is forced instead to mess with core characteristics of Carnacki et al. It's a basic problem with using characters from stories where the supernatural is real and just dropping them into a Holmes story; something has to give on one side or the other. Personally, I am fonder of Carnacki et al than I am of Holmes, so he came out on the wrong side of this for me. |
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Post by ripper on Sept 28, 2021 18:11:47 GMT
What a great thread! Just what I needed tonight. Dem and Ripper, I adore you both, and I love being one of the more cobweb-encrusted residents of the Vault... UFFF.... EEEEEE-villll... *echoing cachinnations die away with the sound of foot-dragging shambling slowly disappearing down a vaulted catacomb* H. Thank you for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed the comments on Countess Dracula. |
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Post by ripper on Sept 28, 2021 18:27:52 GMT
I think the main problem I had with Kronos was the way it was actually written - different chapters told in first-person from different characters' POVs, which I found some combination of annoying/confusing/repetitive/unnecessary. Others might be fine with it. As far as I can remember it sticks pretty close to the film, and has a similar sort of "jokey" style (which probably annoyed me too). That's what put me off Kronos as well. I do like the film and am a big fan of Caroline Munro ever since she did those Lamb's Navy Rum advertisements. I admit that the film does have a bit of a TV production feel about it, and it lacks the gore of its contemporaries, but I have a good time when I watch it, and Caroline looks so good that I can forgive its shortcomings. I have a copy of the original novelisation but it is rather bland imo, the literary equivalent of painting by numbers. |
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Post by dem on Sept 28, 2021 18:34:24 GMT
I have a copy of the original novelisation but it is rather bland imo, the literary equivalent of painting by numbers. Sadly, I thought the same of William Hughes's Lust of the Vampire, and it's hard to imagine how anyone could go wrong with that one. Would have loved there to have been contemporary novelisations of Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde, Dracula: AD 1972 and Horror of Frankenstein - preferably written by Michel Parry and Linda Lovecraft. |
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Post by ripper on Sept 28, 2021 18:55:58 GMT
Sadly, I thought the same of William Hughes's Lust of the Vampire, and it's hard to imagine how anyone could go wrong with that one. Would have loved there to have been contemporary novelisations of Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde, Dracula: AD 1972 and Horror of Frankenstein - preferably written by Michel Parry and Linda Lovecraft. I like your choices, Dem. I would add Frankenstein Must Be Destroyed and Satanic Rites of Dracula. I know the latter gets a bit of a pasting, but I have a soft spot for it as it was the only Hammer horror I managed to see on the big screen--on a double bill with Creatures the World Forgot in 1978 in a small cinema run by the local council. |
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Post by helrunar on Sept 28, 2021 19:23:10 GMT
Satanic Rites is great fun, at least to me. You have Joanna Lumley plus a memorable scene between Cushing and Lee in the roles some regard as their most iconic (for me, this is the case)... it's good stuff.
Creatures the world forgot is generally regarded as bottom of the barrel, but I keep a copy for the sexy male flesh on view and Rosalie Crutchley (a firm favorite here) clambering over some rocks as a no-holds-barred Shamaness.
H.
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Post by ripper on Sept 28, 2021 20:21:33 GMT
Satanic Rites is great fun, at least to me. You have Joanna Lumley plus a memorable scene between Cushing and Lee in the roles some regard as their most iconic (for me, this is the case)... it's good stuff. Creatures the world forgot is generally regarded as bottom of the barrel, but I keep a copy for the sexy male flesh on view and Rosalie Crutchley (a firm favorite here) clambering over some rocks as a no-holds-barred Shamaness. H. I remember being so excited when I saw the ad in our local paper for that week's programme. Satanic Rites hadn't been shown on UK television at that time, and the ad made no mention of Creatures also being included, so I got a surprise when it was shown first. Yes, Satanic Rites has some good scenes. I like Lumley being trapped in the cellar with the vampires and the secretary getting staked, and Cushing's confrontation with Lee in his office. I was disappointed at the time by Creatures. I hadn't seen it before and I was expecting something akin to One Million Years BC and When Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, but sadly no stop motion dinos in this one. |
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Post by andydecker on Sept 29, 2021 16:18:21 GMT
Satanic Rites is great fun, at least to me. You have Joanna Lumley plus a memorable scene between Cushing and Lee in the roles some regard as their most iconic (for me, this is the case)... it's good stuff. It is not in my top ten. The switch from Beacham to Lumley is more than jarring, the henchmen in hippie chick are laughable. But what really is unforgivable is Dracula's end through weed. This is like a big finger to the audience. Come to think of it, Hammer often had lousy endings, but the Dracula movies were the worst. After the first one it went downhill. |
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Post by ripper on Sept 29, 2021 18:10:56 GMT
Satanic Rites is great fun, at least to me. You have Joanna Lumley plus a memorable scene between Cushing and Lee in the roles some regard as their most iconic (for me, this is the case)... it's good stuff. It is not in my top ten. The switch from Beacham to Lumley is more than jarring, the henchmen in hippie chick are laughable. But what really is unforgivable is Dracula's end through weed. This is like a big finger to the audience. Come to think of it, Hammer often had lousy endings, but the Dracula movies were the worst. After the first one it went downhill. I agree about switching Beacham for Lumley. It's not just the change of actress, but the personalities of the two characters is so different. You can't imagine for a second Lumley's Jessica hanging around with those hippies from Dracula AD1972, and her language is quite different. Lumley's Jessica speaks more conventionally...no 'way out' or 'groovy'. I also have to say that Beacham's Jessica can be rather unpleasant to her grandfather. In the scene where Van Helsing catches Jessica looking through his books, he asks if she would bring her friends to meet him. She is very dismissive saying she wouldn't bring them to this mausaleum. Can't imagine Lumley's Jessica saying that. I don't know if Beacham was unwilling or unavailable to reprise her role, or perhaps Hammer felt that her characterisation wouldn't work in Satanic Rites. By the way, in the scene in AD1972 where Jessica and her boyfriend arrive at the church for the black mass and the grave of her ancestor is found, Jessica says that Laurence Van Helsing (who died in 1872) was her great grandfather. As modern day Van Helsing is her grandfather, that would make him at least 100 years old. I know that Lorimer Van Helsing was supposed to be Jessica's father in the original script but as Cushing had aged so much after his wife's death they changed it to grandfather. |
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Post by helrunar on Sept 29, 2021 18:43:36 GMT
My least favorite Hammer Dracula ending is the one in Taste the Blood of Dracula. I actually love that film but the ending makes zero sense. The movie is problematic, particularly in terms of the story; the reasons why I enjoy it have nothing to do with the screenplay.
Dracula has risen from the grave is much more popular with fans but doesn't do much for me.
H.
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Post by andydecker on Sept 29, 2021 20:11:35 GMT
My least favorite Hammer Dracula ending is the one in Taste the Blood of Dracula. I actually love that film but the ending makes zero sense. The movie is problematic, particularly in terms of the story; the reasons why I enjoy it have nothing to do with the screenplay. Dracula has risen from the grave is much more popular with fans but doesn't do much for me. H. I am with you here, in both cases. The ending of Taste is - again - rubbish. But it is my favorite. Full of great scenes, the for the audience sugarcoated bordello is laugh out loud, and there is Linda Hayden. What's not to like?
By the way, in the scene in AD1972 where Jessica and her boyfriend arrive at the church for the black mass and the grave of her ancestor is found, Jessica says that Laurence Van Helsing (who died in 1872) was her great grandfather. As modern day Van Helsing is her grandfather, that would make him at least 100 years old. I know that Lorimer Van Helsing was supposed to be Jessica's father in the original script but as Cushing had aged so much after his wife's death they changed it to grandfather. Now that is interesting. Never knew that. I agree about switching Beacham for Lumley. It's not just the change of actress, but the personalities of the two characters is so different. You can't imagine for a second Lumley's Jessica hanging around with those hippies from Dracula AD1972, and her language is quite different. Lumley's Jessica speaks more conventionally...no 'way out' or 'groovy'. I also have to say that Beacham's Jessica can be rather unpleasant to her grandfather. In the scene where Van Helsing catches Jessica looking through his books, he asks if she would bring her friends to meet him. She is very dismissive saying she wouldn't bring them to this mausaleum. Can't imagine Lumley's Jessica saying that. I don't know if Beacham was unwilling or unavailable to reprise her role, or perhaps Hammer felt that her characterisation wouldn't work in Satanic Rites. The two are soo different that I never thought about this. You are right. As I think I wrote a long time ago in another thread, both movies by Houghton were markedly out of date already at their release. Even after all these years it is kind of baffling that Hammer was unable to adept to the changing times. |
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Post by ripper on Sept 30, 2021 8:55:46 GMT
My least favorite Hammer Dracula ending is the one in Taste the Blood of Dracula. I actually love that film but the ending makes zero sense. The movie is problematic, particularly in terms of the story; the reasons why I enjoy it have nothing to do with the screenplay. Dracula has risen from the grave is much more popular with fans but doesn't do much for me. H. I believe that Taste was written with the expectation that Lee wouldn't be returning as Dracula. The ending is rather weak, I agree. I do like Dracula using the children as the tools of his revenge. Geoffrey Keen I think is quite good as the upright father who in secret visits brothels, and there's something disturbing in his relationship with his daughter--his seeming excitement when he talks of beating her for instance. Grave is a film that I don't care for that much. The storyline just seems weak. The ending is better imo with Dracula impaled on that cross, but still not particularly good. When they were filming that scene it was watched by the Lord Lieutenant and his wife, who were there to present Hammer with the Queen's Award for Exports. He is said to have watched Lee floundering around with that cross sticking through him and commented to his wife, "You know, my dear, that man is a member of my club." |
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I avoided both of those. Not because of the writer, but I can't stand Kronos the movie. For me it is just a glorified TV movie, too tame, indeed too jokey. Maybe too self-aware. The Van Helsing of its time, only without CGI. So I skipped the novel. 
