Is Vault of Evil anti-intellectual?

[pulphack]

sorry to drag it back when dem wants it gone - and to be honest i agree with him - but i just had to say hello steve! come back soon! and i might just break into johnny's and nick that crossroads p/b - i NEVER see them anywhere!

anyway, on topic. regardless of personal preferences and tastes, it should be obvious to anyone who reads that they read different types of things for differing reasons, and that's within genre as well as across genre. if you come across something you don't like, then don't waste your time on any more of it. if you find something you like, then say 'hey you might like this!'. to moan and pontificate (er, like this...) is a bit stupid when there are far better things to do. most people who do tend to do this have a chip about something that they want to work off that shoulder.

which brings me to... much as i like you, des, i do think you were stirring it, deliberately or otherwise. the timing of the thread (so soon after that 'other board' thing involving mark and johnny that was actually rather funny in its squall of childishness) and the fact that you've kept it going and bumped it up do seem to give lie to your words. if this is coincidental, then fair enough - but if you step back and look at it, it does seem suspicious.

so why are you bothering? it seems such a shame, because its not about debate, is it? there isn't really anything to debate... some people like aickman, some like smith, some like both, some like neither (er, that'll be me). so what? incidentally, no reflection on smith and aickman intended, i just picked tem as they were mentioned as opposite ends of the spectrum in the preceeding pages.

[weirdmonger]

I can only say that I know what's genuinely in my heart, pulphack, and I described that all yesterday. You will have to judge me on that. I don't think I should say any more on this topic here, otherwise.
Equally, meanwhile, I disagree with what was repeated elsewhere from this thread about basic principles of the Horror genre. But that's another matter, to be resolved, I hope, eventually ... elsewhere.
des

[jamesdoig]

On a cricket theme, I couldn't resist this for $3 at the Salvos today, signed by Ian and his brother Trevor, the guy who infamously delivered the underarm delivery against the Kiwis way back when:

[monker]

Just to bump on the subject of Thomas Ligotti and while we're on the topic of cricket, I'll go in to bat for Jojo; I hope Ligotti has written far better stories than 'The Last Feast of Harlequin' because, although It was a worthy enough read, I found it rather forced in places and the early description of the setting seems pinched right out of Lovecraft.

On the whole, I think there is too much contention involved to claim the genre had/has any real geniuses; the closest may be Lovecraft but then there are far better writers that have written more than a few classics of the genre so that becomes another argument. I'm more than happy to settle on the idea that many writers have called on their hidden genius from time to time but have then reverted back to a more natural state of being a flawed mortal. I hope I haven't sounded too glib and patronising but sometimes their is a fine line between what works and what doesn't for some readers.

[ramseycampbell]

Mar 17, 2011 3:02:19 GMT monker said:

I hope Ligotti has written far better stories than 'The Last Feast of Harlequin' because, although It was a worthy enough read, I found it rather forced in places and the early description of the setting seems pinched right out of Lovecraft...

I do think he's written finer tales, but on the other hand, the echoes of Lovecraft are surely deliberate - after all, the tale is dedicated to HPL's memory. It bears rather the same relation as "His Mouth Will Taste of Wormwood" to a Lovecraft original, and I'd say it's akin to a series of variations by a composer on someone else's theme.

[monker]

Yeah, I kind of later realised I was saying the bleeding obvious but I read Liggoti's story before I had read anything of Lovecraft's (I lie, I had read 'Pickman's Model') and being only slightly less ignorant now as I was then, I wasn't sure where 'homage' began and imitation stopped - so to speak.

However, being a pitifully slow reader, my opinions on horror fiction go far beyond what I am able to fully digest so I'm no judge.

[corpsecandle]

Reading this thread and the reasons why I write, why I come to this forum and thw way I enjoy life I can firmly say I wouldn't want to be an "intellectual".

I was always under the impression that the Vault was made as an outlet for people to talk about how much they enjoy people like Guy N. Smith regardless of wether he is making high art or not.

My fiancee is a co-founder of I-Love-Art in Brighton and you see some horrible egos, people who think because they feel like intellectuals and create works that they imagine communicates the true essance of imagination and exsistance they deserve a sort of God-head.

It feels like someone has pour lemon juice directly onto your brain it's so painful to see, people get disgustingly self important when they imagine themselves to be more intelligent and cerebrally astute then most in their company. I would much rather stick to battling against my own sub-par grammar and writing stories people have wantd to burn my house down for.

The essance of life lies in the being not in the thinking of being.

[valdemar]

I cannot see how any site that, by it's nature in encouraging it's members to read books of all kinds, could be called 'Anti-intellectual'. To my way of thinking, Horror writing has as much right to exist as any other genre. It is possible that Mankind's first stories were told to entertain and frighten. The 'Epic Of Gilgamesh', set down around 3000 BC, contains tales that would frighten the listener then: the tale of Utnapishtim, set the task of building a ship to save people and animals from a deluge [sound familiar?]This tale was, of course, recycled by the Greeks, as 'Deucalion and the flood'. If you want to enjoy some fantastically gruesome horror, then check out Homer. 'The Odyssey' contains the description of a 'ruck of principle', when Odysseus gets home and decides that he has had enough of the freeloading suitors that have taken over his home in an attempt to woo his not-a-widow Penelope. Likewise, Ovid, in his 'Metamorphoses' features several wince inducing segments of really horrific violence, some of which, would still be almost unwatchable if made into a film, even today. Book V contains the fight that took place after Perseus rescued Andromeda. She was given, by her father, King Cepheus, to Perseus as his bride. Unfortunately, nobody consulted her last suitor, Phineus about this, and he 'crashes' the party, and there follows lovingly described chaos, with people pierced by arrows, javelins, swords, heads smashed in with heavy goblets,etc. Further on, in Book XII, Ovid lovingly describes the pagga that took place at the wedding of Pirithous and Hippodame. At this event were a large contingent of 'heavily refreshed' Centaurs. One of these decided to run off with the bride, the beautiful Hippodame, and it all kicked off. Tintin Quarantino could not up the hideous death quota here. Centuries later, in 'Gargantua And Pantagruel' Rabelais describes a horrifically comic description of Friar John of the Hashes' fight against an enemy army that are preventing access to a vinyard. The Friar uses a large applewood cross, and charges the enemy. The injuries start with smashed-in heads, and get worse from thereon. I read and loved all the above books before I read any 'proper' horror books. So, no, I don't consider Vault Of Evil to be anti intellectual. I'm no snob. Anything today that gets people reading, is fine by me.

[valdemar]

The bottom segment of my last post has been put into italics automatically, and any attempt at re-editing it ha proved fruitless. And yes, I did deliberately write 'Tintin Quarantino'. - used on BBC Radio One many years ago by Mark Radcliffe and 'The Boy Lard'[the artist now known as Marc Riley].

[pulphack]

What an excellent reply! Not just because it refutes all the the mischievous bugger who started the thread was trying to say, but because it circumvents the kind of pomposity I reckon he was trying to also stir up by quoting the boy lard (and I'm thinking you're old enough to remember him as a fresh-faced Fall guitarist who wouldn't say 'boo' to MES). If I wore a hat, I would be doffing it right now.

Incidentally, never invite me to dinner at yours or to see your new fitted kitchen...

[rob4]

I'm reading Guy N. Smith and Gertrude Atherton simultaneously... i can't think what else to add to the debate...

[valdemar]

Marc Riley - the first member of The Fall to punch MES. Not the last by a long chalk, either. I'm listening to 'Prole Art Threat' from the classic 1981 10" mini-lp 'Slates' as I write this. Fancy a brew?

[valdemar]

I'd just like to say that this week, I are mostly bin reading 'The Taking' and 'Frankenstein: 'Prodigal Son' & 'City Of Night' by Dean Koontz, and the Haynes Manuals for the Avro Vulcan and Saturn Five [I'd like to weigh one of those in at a scrapyard].

[helrunar]

Gawd, what a thread. I have a lot of catching-up to do.

H.

[helrunar]

In 2010 Weirdmonger wrote:

I have no axe to grind. I am just crucified on my own axe.

And that's just the beginning of 12 pages of posts...

H.