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Post by Knygathin on Dec 18, 2019 19:39:25 GMT
I'm only familiar with a few of Fritz Leiber's novels but I have to say that he left me colder than snow white - couldn't ever get into his characters I felt something of this the first time around I read the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories. I think there is something lightly autistic about Fritz Leiber, or an ability to go completely into his own world, that may cause this impression of coldness, a social distance or superiority from the rest of society and "fellow" human beings. I find his fantastic imagination to be totally indulgent, free from moral hampering, and it is foremost focused on self-satisfaction. We are socially conditioned to be appalled at seeing any art or literature that does not instruct and impel us to be good humanitarians abiding by Christian morals, or at least that is based on such a superstitiously ingrained misled foundation. That we should sacrifice our own lives and selves for others, feel existential shame and guilt, and be redeemed only by being 'saviors'. I understand that Fritz was at some time a kind of Christian preacher-man, but that does not contradict much, since idealistic or religious vocations are often merely compensation for deeper character traits we unconsciously want rid of or feel guilt about. I don't think Fritz Leiber was nihilistic, not to the degree that R. E. Howard was (not sure Howard was nihilist either, because Conan actually did abide by certain moral standards, such as standing up for his own race.). But Leiber may well have been Nietzschian (consciously or not) in his personal outlook. I remember in the interview helrunar reposted, Fritz said something about "writing to entertain his fellow men", and this fits well within the Nietzschian perspective; the gratification of being able to please others, as a secondary consequence of honestly pleasing oneself. I believe Fritz Leiber's fiction is best appreciated in a Nietzschian state of mind.
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Post by helrunar on Dec 18, 2019 20:06:17 GMT
Those are interesting thoughts, Knythagin. I've never really thought all that much about Fritz beyond enjoying the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories which may have been ground zero for "sword and sorcery"--I guess the argument could be made for REH having created the genre though with Conan et al.
REH's stories leave me cold, I have to confess. But I've always appreciated Leiber's wit and flair for stylish detail. He'd obviously read Dunsany but took the latter's innovations in rather a different direction. Nietzsche is peachy (sorry, couldn't resist) but I hadn't associated him with Leiber's work. I have had a nice paperback of Conjure Wife on my shelf for a few years now but still have yet to sit down and read it. I'm interested in the novel he wrote that includes Clark Ashton Smith as a character--sounds interesting.
My teacher when she's remembering Fritz mainly talks of his extraordinary way with story-reading. He had a vigorous, thundering vocal style and could really carry his audience along in declaiming a tale--she said it was something people spoke of frequently after a gathering. His Dad was an actor so perhaps Fritz Jr inherited thespian abilities. I do think many of the FGM stories have these dramatic flashes and scenes that are part of the distinct charm of the tales, for this reader.
cheers, H.
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Post by andydecker on Dec 19, 2019 10:43:25 GMT
I have not read much of Leiber's other work. But I am a major fan of his "Our Lady of Darkness". While I have come to loath those books or movies about horror writers who experience supernatural things, here it still works for me. The novel captures a certain atmosphere, I like the characters, the effortless neighborhood of these characters. It always reminds me me of the movie "Vertigo" with its urban fantasy folklore (before there was urban fantasy) in San Francisco. Of course it is absolutly artificial and idealized, but the same could be said for the Leiber novel. I guess the argument could be made for REH having created the genre though with Conan et al. REH's stories leave me cold, I have to confess. Howard created the template. Everyone from Kuttner to Leiber and Jakes and DeCamp after the war did their work after Howard's death. There are so many writers I used to like in younger days and find nearly unreadable today, but REH still can capture my imagination. He is often called a dreamer in the countless analysis, which is a very apt description. His tales of lost civilisations and black magic are of course absolutly escapist and have nothing to do with reality, but he made them unconsciously just one step in the next parallel reality, which is more convincing than 95 percent of today's fantasy. He could distill the mythic (if that makes any sense), his Stygia is much more interesting than its model Egypt.
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 19, 2019 11:12:36 GMT
Fritz ... of his extraordinary way with story-reading. He had a vigorous, thundering vocal style and could really carry his audience along in declaiming a tale-- ... His Dad was an actor so perhaps Fritz Jr inherited thespian abilities. ... Yes, most certainly so. Fritz and Clark Ashton Smith actually had quite similar declamatory vocal styles; Smith with a somewhat sadder, dragging note, but lifted in succession on energetic jaunty crests, almost like a fragile singing. Here is a recording of Fritz reading Smith's "A Night in Malneant". cthulhuwho1.com/2010/10/07/fritz-leiber-audio-files-part-5-fritz-leiber-reads-clark-ashton-smiths-a-night-in-malneant/
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 20, 2019 1:45:30 GMT
Now, I have had a few glasses of Madeira, alongside half a marzipan pig (after all, we are nearing Christmas, or rather, as a dedicated pagan, I prefer to say Yuletide), so I can't refrain from posting, without much planning. I must admit, I have some struggling to do with Leiber. His imagination, and humor, is very rich. But there is still some peculiar self-centeredness about him, that leaves me with a sense of coldness or emotional distance. I must admit that. It's a double-edged sword. I do stand by my earlier statement, that a Nietzschian state of mind when reading, is helpful. But I am struggling. I have been conditioned through upbringing with a Christian thinking perspective, like most everybody else.
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 21, 2019 14:04:57 GMT
Now, I have had a few glasses of Madeira, ... so I can't refrain from posting, without much planning. ... Ah, so I see that distinguished Mr. Hyde has been here, ... while I was away on other errands. There is much valuable wisdom in Leiber's stories. Reading presently of young Fafhrd unchaining from his dominant mother (and dead father) and from the socially stifling Cold Waste community. All enriched and augmented by Leiber's detailed magical descriptions. helrunar wrote: " Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories ... may have been ground zero for "sword and sorcery"--I guess the argument could be made for REH having created the genre though with Conan et al." I agree that Leiber must have been at the very forefront of inventing Sword & Sorcery, as far as my reading experience goes. I think he was better than Howard at 'everyday Sorcery', having great magical and psychological insights into the worldly little details we all can relate to. Howard was master of evil forces, of greater than human demon-haunted Sorceries, and of course, of the Sword! What other early writers can be mentioned? Dunsany was not really about Sword & Sorcery, but a more dreamy imagination. Henry Kuttner? Clark Ashton Smith was very good at Sorcery, but not so much with the Sword. Jack Vance was also very good with Sorcery (or Magic, if it is at all sensible to make a subtle distinction between the two), but too contently civilized to handle a Sword. Tolkien wrote a kind of mythological Sword & Sorcery early on, long before The Lord of the Rings was published.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Dec 21, 2019 17:17:11 GMT
I'm only familiar with a few of Fritz Leiber's novels but I have to say that he left me colder than snow white - couldn't ever get into his characters I felt something of this the first time around I read the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories. I think there is something lightly autistic about Fritz Leiber, or an ability to go completely into his own world, that may cause this impression of coldness, a social distance or superiority from the rest of society and "fellow" human beings. I find his fantastic imagination to be totally indulgent, free from moral hampering, and it is foremost focused on self-satisfaction. We are socially conditioned to be appalled at seeing any art or literature that does not instruct and impel us to be good humanitarians abiding by Christian morals, or at least that is based on such a superstitiously ingrained misled foundation. That we should sacrifice our own lives and selves for others, feel existential shame and guilt, and be redeemed only by being 'saviors'. I understand that Fritz was at some time a kind of Christian preacher-man, but that does not contradict much, since idealistic or religious vocations are often merely compensation for deeper character traits we unconsciously want rid of or feel guilt about. I don't think Fritz Leiber was nihilistic, not to the degree that R. E. Howard was (not sure Howard was nihilist either, because Conan actually did abide by certain moral standards, such as standing up for his own race.). But Leiber may well have been Nietzschian (consciously or not) in his personal outlook. I remember in the interview helrunar reposted, Fritz said something about "writing to entertain his fellow men", and this fits well within the Nietzschian perspective; the gratification of being able to please others, as a secondary consequence of honestly pleasing oneself. I believe Fritz Leiber's fiction is best appreciated in a Nietzschian state of mind. Nietzsche my second favourite philosopher and Lieber my second worst author in the genre. I must have another look at Lieber to see if I have done him a diservice.
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 23, 2019 8:17:18 GMT
I must have another look at Lieber to see if I have done him a diservice. The first paragraph of "The Jewels in the Forest" might be used as a test. I think that is about as good as his prose gets. A very natural, integrated high artistic quality, written by an intelligent mind, in my view. It is pure pleasure.
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 23, 2019 8:37:27 GMT
helrunar wrote: " Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories ... may have been ground zero for "sword and sorcery"--I guess the argument could be made for REH having created the genre though with Conan et al." What other early writers can be mentioned? The small collection The Spell of Seven tried to succinctly introduce Sword & Sorcery. The cover art, perhaps better than anything seen elsewhere, captures the spirit perfectly. It also includes a part of Moorcocks's Elric Saga, which I have not read. He came into the genre a little later.
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Post by ropardoe on Dec 23, 2019 9:05:11 GMT
helrunar wrote: " Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories ... may have been ground zero for "sword and sorcery"--I guess the argument could be made for REH having created the genre though with Conan et al." What other early writers can be mentioned? The small collection The Spell of Seven tried to succinctly introduce Sword & Sorcery. The cover art, perhaps better than anything seen elsewhere, captures the spirit perfectly. It also includes a part of Moorcocks's Elric Saga, which I have not read. He came into the genre a little later. And that was the very book that introduced me to Fritz Leiber. What an introduction. "Bazaar of the Bizarre" remains my favourite Fafhrd and Gray Mouser story. It was a good few years later that I discovered Leiber's supernatural fiction.
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Post by andydecker on Dec 23, 2019 9:34:12 GMT
The small collection The Spell of Seven tried to succinctly introduce Sword & Sorcery. The cover art, perhaps better than anything seen elsewhere, captures the spirit perfectly. It also includes a part of Moorcocks's Elric Saga, which I have not read. He came into the genre a little later. Moorcock's first Elric story The Dreaming City dates from 1961. His first collection of his Fantasy is from 1963. De Camp did an earlier Fantasy anthology. Swords & Sorcery: Stories of Heroic Fantasy. Also published by Pyramid, in 1963, two years before The Spell of Seven. Interestingly it also had a Leiber story. When the Sea-King's away.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Dec 24, 2019 15:25:28 GMT
Have to retract my comments about Fritz. I don't like the Gray Mouser stuff largely because at no point can I suspend my disbelief. However, I do like his short stories.
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 25, 2019 19:17:16 GMT
The first paragraph of "The Jewels in the Forest" ... That paragraph gives me the rich impression of a typical Pieter Bruegel panorama painting, with farmers tilling the fields in the foreground and town dwellers in the background busy with other occupations. There is nothing emotionally clammy about Fritz Leiber, but he gives valuable and straightforward wisdom about women, manhood, mothers and fathers, growing up, becoming self sufficient independent, looking after oneself and ones own individual interests, and grabbing Life. I guess that is why I find his work Nietzschian, as opposed to Christian. Even if it can be a challenge to get involved with his characters, he is still definitely worthwhile to read. But there are many good writers, of course, and one can't read everything. I have selected to read Leiber, though he is a late discovery.
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Post by andydecker on Dec 26, 2019 23:21:47 GMT
I guess that is why I find his work Nietzschian, as opposed to Christian. Even if it can be a challenge to get involved with his characters, he is still definitely worthwhile to read. But there are many good writers, of course, and one can't read everything. I have selected to read Leiber, though he is a late discovery. I have to confess that I never thought about writing this way. If a writer's work has Christian or other roots. Especially in Fantasy. A religious context is difficult to find in the works of, say, Donaldson, Jordan or Wagner. I don't mean set-pieces, like the God who cursed Kane, or the creator in Jordan who created the Wheel of Time. But the underlying motives, if I understood you correctly. Or do you mean writers like C.S. Lewis with his Narnia?
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Post by Knygathin on Dec 28, 2019 0:43:56 GMT
I have to confess that I never thought about writing this way. If a writer's work has Christian or other roots. Especially in Fantasy. A religious context is difficult to find in the works of, say, Donaldson, Jordan or Wagner. I don't mean set-pieces, like the God who cursed Kane, or the creator in Jordan who created the Wheel of Time. But the underlying motives, if I understood you correctly. Or do you mean writers like C.S. Lewis with his Narnia? I did not think of it as an underlying conscious motive. Although it can be so in some writers, like C. S. Lewis perhaps. But opinions and religious/philosophical outlook, may of course shine through between the lines. Authors do best avoiding overt didactic motivations, because I am sure it will gravely distract from their fantastic artistic imagination. In Leiber's case I simply thought of it as part of his mentality, a subtle flair in attitude, not a conscious choice to be Nietzschian. He may not even have read Nietzsche, for all I know.
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