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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 19, 2013 13:54:59 GMT
After all the talk about Lin Carter's brilliance as an editor and ineptitude as a writer I felt I had to go for the old pot boiler. Reviews to follow.  |
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Mar 19, 2013 14:16:33 GMT
I look forward to them! I read a lot of Lin Carter as a child. In fact, I think I read more Carter than I did Edgar Rice Burroughs. |
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Post by andydecker on Mar 20, 2013 12:58:35 GMT
I look forward to them! I read a lot of Lin Carter as a child. In fact, I think I read more Carter than I did Edgar Rice Burroughs. Count me in, too. I can't stand this series. He "borrowed" one time too often in this. At the same time you could get Ken Bulmer's Prescot, which is much more colorful, also there seemed to be a lot of Mike Moorcock, especially in the Cambodia setting. |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 21, 2013 11:49:12 GMT
Can't say I really disagree dramatically with Jo Jo or Andy here in terms of evaluation of the worth of Jandar. Except I sort of do on a general level. Also not sure whether I'll review the following books because i suspect I've said it all here:
It’s difficult to express why I like ‘Jandar of Callisto’ It’s obviously not a very good book; an unashamed pastiche of Edgar Rice Burroughs ‘Princess of Mars’, with poor or variable writing at times, unconvincing characters and some awkward dialogue. Perhaps the best way to express this is by comparison with Burroughs himself and a modern fantasy ‘A Clash of Kings’ by George R R Martin.
First a quick plot summary – although if you’ve read ‘A Princess of Mars’ by Burroughs you hardly need look at the following paragraph.
Jonathan Dark is a helicopter pilot, forced down in the jungles of Cambodia, where he discovers the ancient city Arangkhôr. He slides into a mysterious well and teleports to another world – the Jovian moon, Callisto, is enslaved by the Yathoon, a race of intelligent insectoids and rescues, albeit briefly, the princess Darloona of Shondakar. A naughty Sky Pirate steals the princess and a few adventures follow.
The faults – well Burroughs was a far better story teller and this is effectively a specific Burroughs yarn. The dialogue between characters is utterly unconvincing and where Carter injects his own voice and reasoning and ideas – i.e. where he goes away from Burroughs - his innovations fail. The hero of ‘A Princess of Mars does make stupid mistakes but he is a hero; invincible, a master swordsman, an arrogant egotist, principled and brave, and he would never hit a woman. Jandar unfortunately resembles another character of Burroughs, Carson of Venus, who has been criticised by Burrough’s fans for being, well, a bit like Jandar of Callisto, who bumbles insipidly from adventure to adventure being helped out by unlikely friends and, most damning of all, punches the princess.
It’s clear that Carter wanted to write a Burroughs yarn and during the writing tried to inject a ‘little’ more realism into the equation. Unfortunately, the psychological motor for this kind of story is not realism – it’s simply about making the setting realistic enough so that the hero can do heroic things. It is an utter requirement that the hero beats all odds, the princess is the most beautiful in the universe and the hero eventually sweeps her off to the bedroom.
The good bits. Well, it was a bit like Burroughs, the setting and descriptions were good, the narrator gives it the right fantastical feel; it was simple and easily read. Some of the characters were well drawn in a simplistic way and there were very few of them. Interestingly the description of the discovery and entrance to the mysterious well are perhaps the best drawn and most ‘literate’ – very reminiscent of R E Howard. The description of flight and flying machines, clearly drawn from experience, was as convincing as the jungles of both worlds.
I just read ‘A Clash of Kings’ by George R R Martin – well written, tightly plotted, peopled with deep and well drawn characters, almost mathematical in its precision, realistic in its descriptions – To be honest I was a bit bored for a few reasons. Firstly, it was too complex; secondly it was too realistic – too close to the medieval in its portrayal – and damningly for me, constantly filled with the introspections of the characters. The classic failing of most modern fantasy is this introspective nonsense where characters are given a chance to say how they feel and what they think. This fails largely because the characters think in modern terms – terms alien to the fantasy worlds to which they have been condemned – and it also fails because epic fantasies are about events not thoughts. Now ‘Jandar of Callisto’ is not particularly an epic – although that could be argued as transportation to an alien planet is a fairly epic event – but ‘Clash of Kings’ is one of a series of books purporting to be epic. It would perhaps become an epic if Martin removed the entire internal dialogue.
Carter makes none of these mistakes – the book is short, readable; there are only a few main characters, Jander thinks about things but then he’s the narrator. For an hour or so you’re carried off to a strange planet and seeking out the heroine with the panting breasts. In short you’re an adolescent and that’s where the best fantasy lies.
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Post by andydecker on Mar 21, 2013 13:44:23 GMT
I just read ‘A Clash of Kings’ by George R R Martin – well written, tightly plotted, peopled with deep and well drawn characters, almost mathematical in its precision, realistic in its descriptions – To be honest I was a bit bored for a few reasons. Firstly, it was too complex; secondly it was too realistic – too close to the medieval in its portrayal – and damningly for me, constantly filled with the introspections of the characters. The classic failing of most modern fantasy is this introspective nonsense where characters are given a chance to say how they feel and what they think. This fails largely because the characters think in modern terms – terms alien to the fantasy worlds to which they have been condemned – and it also fails because epic fantasies are about events not thoughts. Now ‘Jandar of Callisto’ is not particularly an epic – although that could be argued as transportation to an alien planet is a fairly epic event – but ‘Clash of Kings’ is one of a series of books purporting to be epic. It would perhaps become an epic if Martin removed the entire internal dialogue. Carter makes none of these mistakes – the book is short, readable; there are only a few main characters, Jander thinks about things but then he’s the narrator. For an hour or so you’re carried off to a strange planet and seeking out the heroine with the panting breasts. In short you’re an adolescent and that’s where the best fantasy lies. Ah, but that is the problem, isn't it? Without the character introspection it wouldn't have left the genre niche and became a bestseller. Don't get me wrong, I also reading this on and off after having it collecting dust for more years I care to remember and started again after seing the tv version. And you are right, it is much too self-aware, and it fairly screams plotted at the board. But where others crash and burn with this same technique, he can pull it off, and Martin is enough of a bastard to put his characters gleefully through the wringer. Of course it is epic only in the sense that you got dozens of characters and it is 3000 pages or whatever. And have some dragons. Apart from this it is just another tale of an ugly civil war. On the other hand, this is a good alternative to the "stableboy gets magic ring and battles the dark one" plot which nowadays is so thunderously un-originell. But - and this is important - without the realistic circumstances and the constant wallowing in the mud it would have never appealed to this outside audience. This doesn't necessarily makes it a better fantasy, but it runs on a high level. I guess today Carter also would write 400+ pages novels. One of the biggest problems of the Callisto books is that he already did the same a few times before. If you have read Thongor and the Green Star books, Callisto is just more of the same. The only original thing in here is hitting the princess  which at the end of the day isn't much. Sometimes I fear that after 80 years or so the genre is running on fumes only. |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 21, 2013 14:35:29 GMT
I just read ‘A Clash of Kings’ by George R R Martin – well written, tightly plotted, peopled with deep and well drawn characters, almost mathematical in its precision, realistic in its descriptions – To be honest I was a bit bored for a few reasons. Firstly, it was too complex; secondly it was too realistic – too close to the medieval in its portrayal – and damningly for me, constantly filled with the introspections of the characters. The classic failing of most modern fantasy is this introspective nonsense where characters are given a chance to say how they feel and what they think. This fails largely because the characters think in modern terms – terms alien to the fantasy worlds to which they have been condemned – and it also fails because epic fantasies are about events not thoughts. Now ‘Jandar of Callisto’ is not particularly an epic – although that could be argued as transportation to an alien planet is a fairly epic event – but ‘Clash of Kings’ is one of a series of books purporting to be epic. It would perhaps become an epic if Martin removed the entire internal dialogue. Carter makes none of these mistakes – the book is short, readable; there are only a few main characters, Jander thinks about things but then he’s the narrator. For an hour or so you’re carried off to a strange planet and seeking out the heroine with the panting breasts. In short you’re an adolescent and that’s where the best fantasy lies. Ah, but that is the problem, isn't it? Without the character introspection it wouldn't have left the genre niche and became a bestseller. Don't get me wrong, I also reading this on and off after having it collecting dust for more years I care to remember and started again after seing the tv version. And you are right, it is much too self-aware, and it fairly screams plotted at the board. But where others crash and burn with this same technique, he can pull it off, and Martin is enough of a bastard to put his characters gleefully through the wringer. Of course it is epic only in the sense that you got dozens of characters and it is 3000 pages or whatever. And have some dragons. Apart from this it is just another tale of an ugly civil war. On the other hand, this is a good alternative to the "stableboy gets magic ring and battles the dark one" plot which nowadays is so thunderously un-originell. But - and this is important - without the realistic circumstances and the constant wallowing in the mud it would have never appealed to this outside audience. This doesn't necessarily makes it a better fantasy, but it runs on a high level. I guess today Carter also would write 400+ pages novels. One of the biggest problems of the Callisto books is that he already did the same a few times before. If you have read Thongor and the Green Star books, Callisto is just more of the same. The only original thing in here is hitting the princess which at the end of the day isn't much. Sometimes I fear that after 80 years or so the genre is running on fumes only. Well, I can't disagree. In fact in a sentence you summarized the entire Clash of Kings better than my long paragraphs. I think in essence I'm saying I like Carter's stuff better because its formulaic and has few pretensions to being anything but a jolly wheeze. I would never say Martin is a bad writer - he's clearly very clever and extremely good at writing and certainly an advance on some of the dreadful stuff that preceded him. But if you flick into many earlier fantasy works you'll find tons of this introspection and multi viewpoint characterization - I hate it. I am more or less at the point of declaring the genre dead to me. |
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Mar 21, 2013 21:34:59 GMT
The faults – well Burroughs was a far better story teller and this is effectively a specific Burroughs yarn. The dialogue between characters is utterly unconvincing and where Carter injects his own voice and reasoning and ideas – i.e. where he goes away from Burroughs - his innovations fail. The hero of ‘A Princess of Mars does make stupid mistakes but he is a hero; invincible, a master swordsman, an arrogant egotist, principled and brave, and he would never hit a woman. Jandar unfortunately resembles another character of Burroughs, Carson of Venus, who has been criticised by Burrough’s fans for being, well, a bit like Jandar of Callisto who bumbles insipidly from adventure to adventure being helped out by unlikely friends and, most damning of all, punches the princess. Craig, have you had a chance to read some of Leigh Brackett's stories? I'd be curious to hear your take on Burroughs vs. Brackett vs. Carter. Also, given that I'll never read the Callisto series, what possessed Jandar to punch the princess? |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 22, 2013 7:18:12 GMT
The faults – well Burroughs was a far better story teller and this is effectively a specific Burroughs yarn. The dialogue between characters is utterly unconvincing and where Carter injects his own voice and reasoning and ideas – i.e. where he goes away from Burroughs - his innovations fail. The hero of ‘A Princess of Mars does make stupid mistakes but he is a hero; invincible, a master swordsman, an arrogant egotist, principled and brave, and he would never hit a woman. Jandar unfortunately resembles another character of Burroughs, Carson of Venus, who has been criticised by Burrough’s fans for being, well, a bit like Jandar of Callisto who bumbles insipidly from adventure to adventure being helped out by unlikely friends and, most damning of all, punches the princess. Craig, have you had a chance to read some of Leigh Brackett's stories? I'd be curious to hear your take on Burroughs vs. Brackett vs. Carter. Also, given that I'll never read the Callisto series, what possessed Jandar to punch the princess? Yes, I just finished them on Vault recommendation - Jandar punched the Princess because she refused to be rescued. He needed to knock her out. Big failing in the book, the lack of chemistry between these two - in two books I think he's been insulted twice and apart from that they haven't even spoken. It's as annoying as going out for an evening with a couple who hate each other and an inexplicable miss by Carter. The princess says as little in Burrough's series but she says the right things and is incomparably beautiful as she should be. In the scale of literary ability I think it would be Martin Brackett Burroughs Carter Still in the scale of pure enjoyment I might say Burroughs Carter Brackett Martin But this raises a huge number of questions not least personal preference. Brackett has a more convincing and bleaker hero but she also falls into this trap of of overcomplexity, inner motivations and inner speculations by her characters. For me she is like a simple prototype of the kind of fantasy Martin produces and for that reason i wouldn't buy any more of her books. |
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Mar 22, 2013 11:37:33 GMT
Some of my friends rave about Martin, but I doubt that I'll ever get around to reading A Song of Fire and Ice. I read two of his earlier works, "Sandkings" and "Nightflyers" and didn't particularly care for either. I am curious about Fevre Dream, so maybe someday I'll read that.
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Post by doug on Mar 22, 2013 20:17:18 GMT
Some of my friends rave about Martin, but I doubt that I'll ever get around to reading A Song of Fire and Ice. I read two of his earlier works, "Sandkings" and "Nightflyers" and didn't particularly care for either. I am curious about Fevre Dream, so maybe someday I'll read that. Hi, I must be going on 30 years since I read Fevre Dream and I found it enjoyable enough that I can still remember most of the story. take care. Doug |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Mar 27, 2013 14:05:34 GMT
Black Legion of Callisto, the second Jonathan Dark novel, actually emerges from Carter's hand a bit better than the first. After a shaky start Jander succeeds in rescuing Princess Darloona from the Sky Pirates, only to see her fall into the hands of the Black Legion. There's some crunchingly bad dialogue but the sky boat descriptions are good as are the frozen wastes. It's still cheap Burroughs but it's fun.
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Jan 10, 2014 10:04:41 GMT
I’ve now read some of the Martian tales of Leigh Brackett: The Coming of the Terrans and the Sword of Rhiannon and another one I can’t find. I’m flattered you asked me to compare them and I hope you don’t mind if I throw Howard into the mix. To keep it simple. The winner is:
Story teller
E.R.Burrroughs
R.E. Howard
Leigh Brackett
Lin Carter
George R.R. Martin (modern)
Ability to inspire, to thrill and excite
R.E. Howard
E.R.Burrroughs
Leigh Brackett
Lin Carter
George R.R. Martin (modern)
Consistency in plot, writing
Leigh Brackett
George R.R. Martin
R.E. Howard
Lin Carter
E.R.Burrroughs (modern)
Again I don’t want to seem like a George R.R. Martin basher because he is a very good writer and translates well on to the screen – I just don’t like modern fantasy very much. I can read Tim Powers for example but to me its pygmies sitting on the shoulders of giants. I probably don’t like the modern world either and it reflects on my liking of all things modern including writing.
I won’t give much of review except to mention that I enjoyed the Martian Brackett more than her Skaith novels. I thought that they were very good, and at times really great. Having looked her up on wikipedia I fond she was an athletic tomboy and that’s no surprise. Ultimate respect to a woman working and excelling in a man’s world. I would have loved to meet her and I’m fairly certain she would have pasted me at volleyball.
In The Sword of Rhiannon, Brackett’s archaeologist Matt Carse enters the forgotten tomb of the Martian god Rhiannon and plunges into the Red Planet's past. Vast oceans cover the land, legendary Sea-Kings rule from terraced palaces, there are heroes, anti heroines, slaves and loads of minor characters carrying swords and scowls around: In short, all the required elements for the juvenile mind. The language is at times superb, the pacing is great, the plotting accurate and my only criticism is really quite simple: Despite being an athletic tomboy Brackett was not a man. Ah ha you say – Politically incorrect, knuckle dragging chauvinist reveals inner soul. How can I state this offensive garbage when Brackett was more thoroughly steeped in the mores of American society - a friend of Bradbury and a lover of E.R. Burroughs – closer to the source of all this sword and sorcery fantasy than I will ever be?
The answer is quite simple and I rest my case with a paper called ‘Gender, Genre, and Writing Style in Formal Written Text’ in ‘Text & Talk’ Ed. Sarangi, Srikant.
The paper explores differences between male and female writing in a large subset of the British National Corpus covering a range of Genres in both fiction and non fiction. They found significant differences between male and female writing
I’m sure you don’t want to go too deeply into the paper but in simple terms the total number of nominals used by male and female authors is virtually identical but females use many more pronouns and males use many more noun specifiers. Also females exhibit greater usage of features identified by previous researchers as "involved". Males exhibit greater usage of features which have been identified as "informational".
It comes down to this: A female is likely to use ‘she’ and ‘her’ significantly more than a male writer. She’s also likely to go into reasons and emotions while a man, simple little fellow that he is, is likely to just tell you something straight.
On a more personal and intuitive level (I have intuitions) I noticed that while Brackett was superb in her description of certain aspects of war and savagery, when it actually came to fighting she lacked the Conan factor. I cannot recall a single example of Brackett reveling in the slaughter of hapless enemies or the delight in skewering someone on a sword.
This genuinely may have something to do with the functional parts of male and female anatomy and the influence this has on the more elevated thoughts in the unconscious. So, as a simple bloke if I was ever cast into one of these fantasy worlds and handed a sword I have no doubt that rather than swirl it above my head and shout ‘tally ho where is the heroine?’ I would lie down on the ground and cry in abject fear. However, in reading a fantasy novel I want the opponents to be ruthlessly slaughtered. Brackett just doesn’t want this, most likely because she’s a decent person and a girl.
In any case, Brackett – excellent genre authoress but not Howard or Burroughs.
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Post by cauldronbrewer on Jan 11, 2014 18:00:12 GMT
I hope you don’t mind if I throw Howard into the mix. Good idea. Speaking of Howard, I just bought Del Rey's collection of his El Borak stories and other desert tales. I'm curious to see how they compare to the ones about Conan, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, and Kull. I won’t give much of review except to mention that I enjoyed the Martian Brackett more than her Skaith novels. Agreed. Her Skaith novels are a respectable attempt to recapture the old planetary romance magic while removing the old-fashioned references to Mars and Venus, but I prefer the earlier ones. The language is at times superb, the pacing is great, the plotting accurate and my only criticism is really quite simple: Despite being an athletic tomboy Brackett was not a man. Ah ha you say – Politically incorrect, knuckle dragging chauvinist reveals inner soul. How can I state this offensive garbage when Brackett was more thoroughly steeped in the mores of American society - a friend of Bradbury and a lover of E.R. Burroughs – closer to the source of all this sword and sorcery fantasy than I will ever be? The answer is quite simple and I rest my case with a paper called ‘Gender, Genre, and Writing Style in Formal Written Text’ in ‘Text & Talk’ Ed. Sarangi, Srikant. The paper explores differences between male and female writing in a large subset of the British National Corpus covering a range of Genres in both fiction and non fiction. They found significant differences between male and female writing One interesting test of this theory would be to read (or reread) "Lorelei of the Red Mist" and see whether you can figure out where Brackett's writing ends and Bradbury's begins! |
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Post by Craig Herbertson on Jan 13, 2014 11:02:19 GMT
I hope you don’t mind if I throw Howard into the mix. Good idea. Speaking of Howard, I just bought Del Rey's collection of his El Borak stories and other desert tales. I'm curious to see how they compare to the ones about Conan, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, and Kull. I won’t give much of review except to mention that I enjoyed the Martian Brackett more than her Skaith novels. Agreed. Her Skaith novels are a respectable attempt to recapture the old planetary romance magic while removing the old-fashioned references to Mars and Venus, but I prefer the earlier ones. The language is at times superb, the pacing is great, the plotting accurate and my only criticism is really quite simple: Despite being an athletic tomboy Brackett was not a man. Ah ha you say – Politically incorrect, knuckle dragging chauvinist reveals inner soul. How can I state this offensive garbage when Brackett was more thoroughly steeped in the mores of American society - a friend of Bradbury and a lover of E.R. Burroughs – closer to the source of all this sword and sorcery fantasy than I will ever be? The answer is quite simple and I rest my case with a paper called ‘Gender, Genre, and Writing Style in Formal Written Text’ in ‘Text & Talk’ Ed. Sarangi, Srikant. The paper explores differences between male and female writing in a large subset of the British National Corpus covering a range of Genres in both fiction and non fiction. They found significant differences between male and female writing One interesting test of this theory would be to read (or reread) "Lorelei of the Red Mist" and see whether you can figure out where Brackett's writing ends and Bradbury's begins! Good idea re "Lorelei of the Red Mist". I could fall flat on my face on this subject as I have once before. if someone has any significant portion of the text available its quite easy to paste it into a gender test and see what comes up. |
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which at the end of the day isn't much.
