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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 21, 2010 14:11:51 GMT
Even if you do not have a particular target audience in mind, your publisher most certainly does. The market for horror (and also other genre fiction) changed dramatically as a result of the success of Stephen King. Unlike older horror authors, who were concerned with generating feelings such as awe in their readers, King writes about alcoholism and dysfunctional families. The average "horror" reader therefore now expects thick novels that are mostly soap-opera melodrama with some scares here and there. Obviously these expectations will affect what is published.
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Post by ramseycampbell on Aug 21, 2010 14:31:51 GMT
Even if you do not have a particular target audience in mind, your publisher most certainly does. The market for horror (and also other genre fiction) changed dramatically as a result of the success of Stephen King. Unlike older horror authors, who were concerned with generating feelings such as awe in their readers, King writes about alcoholism and dysfunctional families. The average "horror" reader therefore now expects thick novels that are mostly soap-opera melodrama with some scares here and there. Obviously these expectations will affect what is published. Forgive me, which publisher? All my books since 2000 ( The Darkest Part of the Woods) has first been published by PS, and Pete Crowther certainly doesn't attempt to influence what I write. I do try and reach for awe whenever possible - indeed, in that very book. Dysfuctional families are, as a theme, as old as horror fiction - at least, the Ushers come to my mind. I've certainly written about such families, but that's because of personal experience rather than trying to emulate Steve. Just because the market dictates something doesn't mean that all writers will try to fit their work to it - I very rarely have.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 21, 2010 15:02:42 GMT
I was subtly trying to steer the discussion (which is, of course, also completely off-topic) away from the particular and toward the more general. I am uncomfortable with having to justify critical remarks, made in a perfectly impersonal context, about products sold for money, to the author of those products.
That is, I was---until I remembered you are not only an author, but also a critic, and hence must be assumed to understand the social value of criticism.
A case in point is your review of Umberto Lenzi's film NIGHTMARE CITY in EATEN ALIVE! ITALIAN CANNIBAL AND ZOMBIE MOVIES, ed Jay Slater, 2006, in which you carefully synopsize the entire proceedings and make fun of them at every point. How do you think poor Lenzi feels when he reads that? (Actually, he probably feels, like I do, that the whole enterprise is somewhat redundant, as the received mainstream opinion of his cannibal oeuvre is that it is worthless anyway, and that the review would have been more interesting and surprising if it had found some aspect of the film that is nevertheless of value.)
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Post by dem bones on Aug 21, 2010 18:52:47 GMT
Well, did you get to the part about the "hard disks" yet? i got there in the end. P. 129 in the Legend. "Here, take the files and make a copy for yourself"
Hargreaves slid a box of hard disks across his desktop.if anything, that's the proof-reader taking the day off. as you were having a good time with it up until then, can't you just run a pencil through the "hard", write "floppy" in the margin, and go on to enjoy the rest of the ride? anyway. On Janice's recommendation, Hargreaves has recruited the Commissioner's son, Detective Constable Butterworth, to his think tank, the rookie having proved himself on the the Harrods case. Truth be told, the balding, paunchy DI is jealous of the youngster which is no doubt why he enjoys bawling him out so and calling him a "hopeless nit" - it may even have lead to his fatal slip of the tongue. We'll never know. As arranged, Rose and Robert meet Simon in the decrepit, tramp-infested park on the embankment. Simon, as they were forewarned, is a trip. A young, heavily tattooed, blue-haired scarecrow decked out in a rags and chains combo, all speed-freak complexion and matching psychotic disorder. His friendly demeanor makes him all the scarier. Simon takes them up top of an office block by the Euston Tower where they are introduced to Lee and Jay who give them a crash-course in navigating the Roofworld with their beginners harnesses. As the pair are about to embark on their initiation (nothing sordid: they just have to complete "the Skelter run", one of the steepest in the city, to show they're not scared of heights), a poisoned bolt takes Jay in the neck. Chymes! Simon and Lee launch the panicked pair into space. When they arrive at the end of the run - the rooftop of the Savoy - minus their escorts, the leader of the the 7N Krewe is not best pleased. How come they escaped when his men didn't? But with "The New Age" imminent, he simply no longer has the luxury of caution and has to trust them. "My name is Dr. Nathaniel Zalan and you seem to have something I need ..." And what of Lee and Simon? Well, as the next chapter is entitled Keel-hauled, i'm not holding out much hope for them.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 21, 2010 19:02:24 GMT
as you were having a good time with it up until then, can't you just run a pencil through the "hard", write "floppy" in the margin, and go on to enjoy the rest of the ride? It is not so easy; after all, I have been angry and upset---feeling betrayed, even---about this for over 20 years. Let us see what you have to say about the rest first.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 21, 2010 19:57:21 GMT
Clearly, the proof-reader is also culpable. But it seemed to me that the author thought 3 1/4-inch disks, which were relatively new at the time, were called hard disks, since they came in firm plastic cartridges. (For our younger members: Previously, diskettes had been larger and housed in cardboard jackets, and were quite flexible.)
The problem is that once a writer makes clear that he has a faulty grasp of basic facts of everyday life, you inevitably start to wonder if you can trust him on anything. Are there really people living on the rooftops of London? That sort of thing.
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Post by ramseycampbell on Aug 22, 2010 10:06:21 GMT
Well, if nobody minds my replying on this thread to the earlier post, I honestly don't know what Lenzi would have thought of my review of his film. I was asked to write some pieces for the zombie book, and the films I would have enthused about had already been assigned. I hadn't realised until just now, when I checked the book, that both of my pieces were significantly rewritten by the editor - I would never write "alright" or use "deadpan" as a verb, for just two of many instances. I'll include my original versions in my next non-fiction book, Sticky Rotters. I still think they're accurate, and citing the text is the way I write criticism.
Ah, I now see from the interview with Radice in the zombie book that (according to him) Lenzi thought himself comparable to John Ford.
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Post by dem bones on Aug 22, 2010 11:18:44 GMT
The problem is that once a writer makes clear that he has a faulty grasp of basic facts of everyday life, you inevitably start to wonder if you can trust him on anything. Are there really people living on the rooftops of London? That sort of thing. You're looking for far more from horror & supernatural literature than i ever did, JoJo, so i'm not sure how anything i have to say about Roofworld will be of use to you, or anyone else come to that, and nor should it. in case you've not noticed, i've all the discernment and critical nous of a vacuum cleaner, sucking it all up indiscriminately and reacting on the most neanderthal level: "liked that one, didn't like that one." I'll lurch spastically from The Tractate Middoth to The Mole Men Want Your Eyes via Ravissante and The Brain Eaters, then it's off to Crab's Moon or Our Lady Of Darkness, Scared Stiff or Fresh Fiances For The Devil's Daughter Jackboot Girls or Roofworld .... and appreciate - in the cases of the above named, even love - them for what they are. And i'm very grateful to be made that way. Not having had the benefit of a classical education, much as i appreciate a number of his stories, Aickman's literary allusions are often entirely wasted on me. He might as well be Montague Summers lapsing into Greek or Arabic. Personally, the more an author gives me the impression that he or she think they're Moses just down from the mountains with the tablets in his hand, the less inclined i am to bother with them in the first place. It's all in my signature, really.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 22, 2010 11:37:12 GMT
Well, I agree with the general tendency of your manifesto, but I do not see how it was prompted by anything I said. I just noted that Fowler wrote something stupid that abruptly woke me up from the spell I had previously been under. That has nothing to do with whether the book is "literature" or not.
On the other hand, such things need not wreck a work of fiction. I am very fond of John Dickson Carr, for instance, even though he seemed to inhabit a parallel universe in which dry ice is a very dangerous substance that drives men mad, the size of a projected image is increased by moving the projector closer to the screen, etc.
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Post by andydecker on Aug 22, 2010 11:47:07 GMT
I am very fond of John Dickson Carr, for instance, even though he seemed to inhabit a parallel universe in which dry ice is a very dangerous substance that drives men mad, the size of a projected image is increased by moving the projector closer to the screen, etc. Not wanting to usurp the thread, but is JD Carr really worth reading? I have bought two or three of his novels in a rahter good german edition - classic crime, which didn´t sell well -, as I read that he is supposed to be the master of the famous locked-room-mystery. And I always got stuck very quickly, because it was so slow and boring. Is it just me or is he just a slow writer who affords a little bit of concentration?
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 22, 2010 12:00:28 GMT
Not wanting to usurp the thread, but is JD Carr really worth reading? I have bought two or three of his novels in a rahter good german edition - classic crime, which didn´t sell well -, as I read that he is supposed to be the master of the famous locked-room-mystery. And I always got stuck very quickly, because it was so slow and boring. Is it just me or is he just a slow writer who affords a little bit of concentration? Read THE HOLLOW MAN (aka THE THREE COFFINS), often considered his best novel. It was the first one I read, and I was hooked immediately because it was so mind-bogglingly bizarre and sinister. I am not sure he should be read in German translation, though.
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Post by ramseycampbell on Aug 22, 2010 12:35:20 GMT
Not wanting to usurp the thread, but is JD Carr really worth reading? I have bought two or three of his novels in a rahter good german edition - classic crime, which didn´t sell well -, as I read that he is supposed to be the master of the famous locked-room-mystery. And I always got stuck very quickly, because it was so slow and boring. Is it just me or is he just a slow writer who affords a little bit of concentration? Read THE HOLLOW MAN (aka THE THREE COFFINS), often considered his best novel. It was the first one I read, and I was hooked immediately because it was so mind-bogglingly bizarre and sinister. I am not sure he should be read in German translation, though. The Hollow Man is very good, but the only problem is that in one chapter Carr has his detective analyse the locked-room mystery and gives away some of the solutions to his own novels! I'd suggest as an introduction The Plague Court Murders, which has a strongly macabre atmosphere and even a hint of the supernatural. On the other hand, Andy, if you're looking for terseness in the area of "impossible" crime fiction, try Chesterton's Father Brown tales, a crucial influence on Carr.
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 22, 2010 13:17:40 GMT
in one chapter Carr has his detective analyse the locked-room mystery and gives away some of the solutions to his own novels! I do not think he does, actually, but it is difficult to discuss this further without being explicit about the solutions to Carr's mysteries. I believe the point of the "locked-room lecture" is to show us that Carr can so easily come up with new ideas that it costs him little to give these ones away.
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Post by dem bones on Aug 22, 2010 13:26:23 GMT
Well, I agree with the general tendency of your manifesto, but I do not see how it was prompted by anything I said. I just noted that Fowler wrote something stupid that abruptly woke me up from the spell I had previously been under. That has nothing to do with whether the book is "literature" or not. I should have quit on the first sentence, because that was in direct response to the lines quoted. i sidetracked myself after that. i think we ARE looking for something different from the genre though. most people i know admit to at least the occasional mistake and me, i fuck up on a regular basis, so why on earth would i expect authors to be infallible? the vintage pulp horrors are rife with outrageous plot twists and bizarre lapses in logic - for me, it's part of their charm and the flaws often add to the essential strangeness of the stories. Chris Fowler is arguably a far more thoughtful and accomplished author than say, Seabury Quinn, so maybe you expect him to be immune from the odd slip up, but i've had no difficulty in shrugging off the "hard disc" moment and continuing with a novel which, so far, i've enjoyed as much as i did first time around. my guess is that, if you start it again, you'll come to a grinding halt on exactly the same line you did before. without getting too arsey, can i just point out that 'Manifesto' is overstating the case, kind of implies i've got a message to promote or am out to make converts or something, when i've not the slightest interest in doing so. As far as books go, i like when people enjoy whatever makes them happy. Read very little John Dickinson Carr outside of the more horror orientated novella's Vampire Tower, House In Goblin Wood, Blind Man's Hood each of which i had a good time with. He Who Whispers has been malingering near the top of the 'to-read' stack for some weeks now. They've been mentioned in dispatches, but as far as i remember, neither Carr or Chesterton have had threads to themselves yet. so if anyone would care to set that right ...
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Post by Jojo Lapin X on Aug 22, 2010 13:49:40 GMT
why on earth would i expect authors to be infallible? I do not expect authors to be infallible. I will happily read stories set on 18th century sailing ships where neither I nor the author have any idea what the arcane terms used actually mean. But I do expect, perhaps unreasonably, that a professional writer at a minimum be familiar with the names of his own tools of trade---you know, "pen," "paper," "typewriter," "computer," and, yes, even "floppy disk." But I do not want to make too much of this. Like I said, I am much mellower now than 20 years ago. I would give the book another chance---if I could only locate it.
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