|
Post by unholyturnip on Feb 26, 2009 15:16:14 GMT
Certainly I admire Ash-Tree for the fact that they've done what they do for so long, and yes this is very much an area of niche appeal, but how niche is up for debate.
Horror is riding a crest of popularity now that it hasn't enjoyed since the eighties, principally in film, but literature certainly hasn't been hurt by it. Yet the hardback press like Ash-Tree continue to turn out 500 copies a go, which soon find themselves selling for ridiculous prices on ebay. They've got access to great literature which they're only allowing into the hands of the greedy elite. This stuff could appeal to far broader an audience than it does if it were given half the chance. When you consider how many horror fans there are on the planet, versus an edition of 500 books (max) that just doesn't seem logical to me. No. They publish 500 because they actively DON'T want ordinary people to have them. Their interest is in maintaining an elite, and keeping everybody who isn't in 'the circle' as far away as possible.
This is why Wordsworth are so brilliant. They put great literature into the hands of ordinary people at affordable prices. Names like Sheridan Le Fanu, M.R. James and all the rest are kept alive by the likes of Wordsworth, not the elitists at Ash-Tree.
That said, I'll still get their Pleasing Terror reprint lol.
|
|
|
Post by unholyturnip on Feb 26, 2009 15:26:54 GMT
I think the only bad Wordsworth edition I've come across was the Amelia Edwards one. There was a lot of great stuff could have been in that, and a lot of lesser stuff could have been left out. Just out of interest, are there any particular stories that you would have liked to see in there? derek@wordsworth-editions.com I'd certainly add The Phantom Coach. That's her most famous, and I'd say her best, work. Although The Discovery Of The Treasure Isles is really good, as it The Engineer, whilst The Story Of Salome is also worth a read. I'm quite fond of A Service Of Danger, My Brother's Ghost Story and the novelette Monsieur Morris too. Those last three I'd consider 'optionals', but the others are quite essential.
|
|
|
Post by lobolover on Feb 26, 2009 15:52:12 GMT
Im up for the ausie volume. I heard about, and want to read "The insane root" by Mrs. Praed, but Im not sure if it's australian.
|
|
|
Post by David A. Riley on Feb 26, 2009 16:07:52 GMT
500 is quite a good number for the small press these days. Most, other than places like Cemetery Dance or Midnight House, print much smaller numbers, often between 200 and 300 at the most, though this gets smudged a bit when they use POD and I often suspect that far fewer ever get printed in fact. See the recent debate on Crowswing Books on Shocklines, for instance.
Neither Cemetery Dance, Midnight House nor Ash-Tree Press use POD. But this does mean committing themselves to a relatively large print run - large especially if it takes some time to sell all your copies. Even the big mainstream publishing houses, for most hardbacks, often don't have print runs larger than a couple or at the most several thousand - at least till they lost interest in publishing anything other than potential best sellers!
If you check out the the Ash-Tree Press site you'll find quite a large number of their past titles are still available from them at their original prices. The same applies to Midnight House. Which just goes to show that 500 copies do take time to sell. They don't exactly fly out of the window! To risk larger print runs would suggest the very real possibility of overstretching themselves and ending up making a loss. I'm sure. if they could do so without bankrupting themselves, all of these places would print more copies than they do, rather than cater for what you call elitist collectors, but the economics don't add up. Which is why it is good to see someone like Wordsworth in a position to run off cheap paperback copies of so many out of copyright works. They, though, have the infrastructure to sell these through bookshops all over the place.
David
|
|
|
Post by pulphack on Feb 26, 2009 17:37:26 GMT
exactly, david - couldn't have put it better. infrastructure is what it's about. there may be some elitist intent in some presses, but i'm sure that economics is a much more pressing concern.
to take up the debate about the market for horror. yes, maybe... but for what sort of horror? and what if people do decide they want to try the old stuff? if you have it available cheap, then how have you managed to finance it in the first place? and then again, if you can afford to print it off, and you can store it, then how do you make its availability known? if you use e-and mail order only, then you rely on your advertising. so how many could you sell through forums? david - you know this better than i - do most small presses (who i imagine have to be very careful with budget) advertise much, and does it cost them? outside of networking in places where you could sell, could you afford internet ads? i've been told by a large publisher's business manager (who has tried it) that every google ad gets a one in a hundred thousand positive response. even if the figure is better than that, does it equate to your ad cost? and then there's p&p.
i'm not knocking the contention that there may be a big horror market out there - but that's a bit like saying because modern crime is big, then you could flog a few thousand of an old edwardian 'tec novel that few people have heard of, which i can assure you wouldn't work (i know people who've tried it). Ashtree and their like don't really do it to be elitist. they've just ade a realistic prediction based on their budget and costings all round.
anyway, if most of their stuff is out of copyright, then anyone could do it. and how about putting it on-line? it might not be a physical book, but at least its available - ah no hang on, even that if done anything other than as a hobby would take money for the space, site construction and the sheer time it would take.
you condemn Ashtree (who i don't particularly even like, for Gods sakes) and then praise wordsworth - rightly, but consider this. if it's so bloody easy, then why are they making a careful selection? it's called market testing.
bottom line 1: we are a minority. nothing wrong with that, just have to live with it.
bottom line 2: there's a big gap between creating work and then getting it to an audience. one is art (cough,well you know what i mean). the other is commerce. once it gets on a printed and bound page it has to be sold, distributed, stocked, promoted like soap powder or baked beans, to make people aware it's there. and the dichotomy between the two has caused problems since the first printing press. it's as true of small presses (who probably have to be more aware of it in some ways as it's people's wages and savings they're pouring into it) as it is of the big congloms. the only difference really is scale.
sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant. but the truth is that unless there's an audience it ain't worth the time and cost. and even if there is, you've still got to find a way to reach them. wordsworth and ashtree have found models that make it possible for them to do this. if you can find a way to do it that enables you to publish wholesale and cheap without having the baliffs at the door, then every publisher in the world will be hammering at that very door.
|
|
|
Post by The Lurker In The Shadows on Feb 26, 2009 19:17:03 GMT
I was looking at the Ash Tree site today and I see you can now order direct from them using PayPal, so I take back what I said about their "arcane" ordering system.
I would also say that in re-issuing works like MRJ's "Eton and Kings" or "The Five Jars", they have brought out stuff that other publishers haven't seemed too interested in re-releasing over the years, and "A Pleasing Terror" is clearly a labour of love when other publishers seem content in simply re-releasing the usual Collected Ghost Stories - not that I'm complaining that these continue to be in print, and I'm aware that the exceptionally reasonable cover price of the likes of the Wordsworth edition doesn't really permit for the amount of extra work that would be required to produce a similar volume. There have, since, been annotated editions with some of the less frequently collected stories, but nothing quite as all-encompassing as "A Pleasing Terror", so I'm glad that it exists in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by lobolover on Feb 26, 2009 19:31:32 GMT
To puting them online- Gutenberg and Gutenberg Australia is the way to go for that.
|
|
|
Post by dem bones on Feb 26, 2009 21:23:20 GMT
Thanks for the reality check, pulps and david. I admit, it is very easy to demand CHEAP BOOKS CHEAP BOOKS CHEAP BOOKS when you don't have to trouble your head about the economics of the thing and people losing their jobs because you've published a non-seller too many. It's not that i believe books suddenly appear from nowhere as if by magic, but, yeah, my expectations have been ever so slightly .... unrealistic sometimes. Ash Tree. I've amassed a grand total of one of their publications to date - Coffin Nails! - and a thing of great beauty it is, too. You can tell great care goes into their books and, at just short of £30 it's not excessively expensive by today's standards. If i', lucky, i'll be treating myself to an Ash Tree at the rate of one a year, but in the meantime, there are all these Wordsworth's, many by authors i've read little or nothing of. Many by authors who have similar collections available in Ash Tree editions. Perhaps I'll like the Wordsworth's so much, I'll want to upgrade to a hardcover. At least there's a choice. The great thing is, with Wordsworth knocking out titles at the rate of ten a year, we get far more 'new' vintage material available easily and far cheaper than we've been used to in years. David, i don't know what fabulous quantities i imagined these books shift, but i was stunned when you mentioned recently that many of the early (500 copies) Midnight House's are still available. Another reality check.
|
|
|
Post by David A. Riley on Feb 26, 2009 21:59:07 GMT
Facts like that stun me too. Though, on the plus side, at least there is the continuing chance to catch up with some old titles. To date I've bought copies of Harvey Jacobs' My Rose & My Glove and Bob Leman's The Feesters in the Lake, as well as the new Joseph Payne Brennan, of course. I have just ordered the Charles Birkin, The Harlem Horror.
I only have two Ash-Tree Press books, a contributor's copy of Shades of Darkness and Reggie Oliver's Masques of Satan. As you say "You can tell great care goes into their books and, at just short of £30 it's not excessively expensive by today's standards."
The potential sales of books like these are obviously the deciding factors. And at least there are at least 500 copies in the print run. Which means a hell of a big commitment on the part of the publisher, unlike many POD publishers, who need only run off something like 30 copies to start with.
I notice that Reggie Oliver's first two hardback collections, published by Haunted River Press, had print runs of 200. Which makes it hardly surprising that they are almost as hard to get hold of now as hens' teeth. And why they cost me more to buy recently than I've ever before paid for two books!
Still, it all goes to make one admire Wordsworth Books even more for their continuing ability to bring out excellently produced paperbacks at amazingly knockdown prices. One more reason for supporting them as much as possible, especially with them bringing back into print so many obscure stories.
David
|
|
|
Post by lobolover on Feb 26, 2009 22:13:57 GMT
Well, my beef is mainly that there are others out there who do the same thing, but in a slightly......more obtainable way. Liek Hippocampus press for one.
Say, is a "contributor's copy" from Ash Tree actualy a part of the initial 500 listed or are those just the ones put up for sale?
|
|
|
Post by Johnlprobert on Feb 26, 2009 22:27:08 GMT
And what a wonderful man you are for doing so, Mr D! Have you finished yet, then?
|
|
|
Post by David A. Riley on Feb 27, 2009 10:00:24 GMT
I'm not sure about that. I know Midnight House print 525, which includes 25 additional copies that are sent off for review, etc (and may include the author's batch too, though I could be wrong on that). Whichever way you look at it, these copies have still got to be paid for by the publisher to whoever prints them. Add on to this, for books containing stories by living writers, there are royalties or fees to be paid out too, which adds to the costs. For an anthology like Ash-Tree Press's Shades of Darkness, contributors' copies of both the hard and paperbacks, plus postage, plus fees, must add up to quite a bit, let alone what it costs to publish all those copies to start with. That's quite a gamble, especially when most of the smaller "small presses" are happy when they manage to sell 100 copies using POD! Publishing is a tough business. I know from when I brought out 3 issues of Beyond in the mid 90s. I was badly advised by my distribution company to ship out far too many copies to Smiths, Menzies, etc (something like 14,000 copies per issue). Which cost me a small fortune when, after returns, less than 4,000 copies were sold. At least, unlike a magazine, books don't go out of date. By the way, I recently came across a previously unopened box containing some copies of Beyond No 3. If any Vault member would like a free copy just email me or send me a message on this Board, with your address, and I'll post one to you. It includes some excellent stories by Simon Clark, David A. Sutton, Keith Brooke and Larry Tritten, plus a pseudonymous one by me. David
|
|
|
Post by wordswortheditions on Mar 1, 2009 13:03:09 GMT
One last query, if i may. This came up on another thread, but I was curious if the three Dennis Wheatley reprints had achieved respectable sales and wondered if there were plans to reissue more of his Black Magic titles in the future? The Wheatleys do sell well but unfortunately another publisher bought up the rights to the rest of the titles.
|
|
|
Post by lobolover on Mar 5, 2009 18:31:11 GMT
There's a case to be made for a complete supernatural short stories of Sax Rohmer, basically his collections The Haunting Of Low Fennel (Pearson, 1920) and The Dream Detective (Jarrold, 1920) bolstered by the inclusion of Tcheriapin, In the Valley of the Sorceress and any other stray pieces you can turn up. For the second list, perhaps a modern edition of L. T. C. Rolt's excellent ghost story collection Sleep No More. Ash Tree Press have already published an edition with additional stories and his essay from The Saturday Book, but, as Lobo points out, beautiful as their books are, they're also expensive and aimed at the serious collector. Id just like to adress the rising prices. As far as making a profit goes, I cant understand how a book already quite over priced at 50 dollars is sold for six times that? www.ilab.org/db/detail.php?lang=ru&membernr=2181&ordernr=16867.00There is making profit and there is drenching your customers of flesh, skin and soul (alá L.W.Currey) Also, Dem, you mentioned the Cowles-well, im happy to inform you you can (possibly?) buy it here www.vanishingbooks.com/small_press/ashtree.html for the astounishingly low price of 250 dollars. I have a question, though: Im unsure if I should go for the Not Exactly Ghost stories or the Benson brothers colection. Any ideas?
|
|
|
Post by cw67q on Mar 6, 2009 16:16:01 GMT
Both the Benson bros & "Not exactly Ghosts" are good. How helpful is that :-)
I'd go for the second, if I have to chose but i think both are high quality collections. The first half of the Caldecott (which combines two original collections) is stronger than the second. Many of Caldecott's stories are set on a fictitious tropical island (the author was a diplomat) and deal with nature spirits etc. The Benson brother's tales stay more resolutely within the remit of the ghost story, and often have religious overtones. Fine stories though.
Avoid RH Benson's novel "the Necromancers" like the plague though, it is an unpalatable amalgum of religious tract & social snobbery masquerading as a novel. It starts out quite well, but it goes pretty far down hill before the blessed (not in the sense that RHB intended) end hoves into view. (Although if anyone here has read and enjoyed this one, please pipe up, I'd interested to know why and hear the book defended).
Cowles whilst quite readable, isn't all that great (IMHO). There are some good stories, but those that Hugh Lamb (or was it Jack Adrian?) anthologised were among the best. Would it make you sick if I told you I picked up the ATP collected Cowles about 2 years ago for £15! From amazon !!
Also got the ATP reprint of Malden's "Nine Ghosts" for the same price. "Nine Ghost" didn't figure in the Wordsworth poll, but it is a good set of ghost stories.
- chris
|
|